October 4th, 2007

What Does a Fundamentalist Look Like?

 by Bob Stapler  
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fndmntlst.jpgSearching for the great-white, anti-intellectual, bible-thumping, gun-toting, inbred, violent, genocidal, racist-male, tobacco-chewing, hate-spewing, illiterate-elitist, homophobic, absolutist, anti-progress, anti-Darwin, anti-education, woman-subjugating, narrow-minded, dangerous, ignorant, intolerant, totalitarian right-wing extremist, brain-dead, brainwashed, mind-controlling, conspiracy-masterminding, cult-joining, omniscient, hallelujah-born-again, Christian-fundamentalist.

With a conservative like Dinesh D'Souza making distinctions between 'fundamentalist' and 'traditional' Christians (see here), I have to wonder who all these fundamentalists are running around giving us run-of-the-mill conservatives a bad name; and why is Souza giving substance to this characterization?  For my own part, I'm a Jew (though not a particularly good one: meaning I don't spend a whole lot of time memorizing passages of Torah, studying Talmud, and am uncertain I know my kashrut and halachah – though I got the broad outlines).  That makes me an analog to most Christians who go to church a couple of times a year, know the prayers for feasts, fasts, and funerals, and want their kids brought up in a church setting.  Hardly what you'd call a fundamentalist, yet given to siding with fundies over atheists.  In my own religion, we have our "ultra-orthodox;" every one of whom knows the rules of my religion better than I do, tend to be literalists, and practices them without fail.  Yet, I would not apply the term "fundamentalist" to them because the correlation is different. With us, all agree to the same religion, with orthodoxy meaning some are more serious about practicing what we preach; all except Reconstructionism, which has been overhauled big time. That's oversimplifying, but you get the idea.

So, this got me to thinking, I ought to go out and meet some of these fundamentalists to learn what all the fuss is about; especially as I'm being lumped in with them.  Trouble is, I don't know any "real" Christians.  All I know are regular Christians who, like me, have faith G-d is out there, but don't want to spend every free moment reading scripture, praying until our backs give out (uh, knees?), and haven't spent a lot of "quality-time" with our creator.

(The conversations which follow are purely fictional and the product of my fevered brain, but are what you might expect to find if you go looking for that quintessential fundamentalist.)

* * *

Okay, so where do you find deeply dyed Christians?  Well in church, of course, and the biggest sect are the Catholics.  There's a huge Catholic cathedral downtown, Our Lady of Dwindling Attendance, which ought to be a magnet for serious Catholics.  So, I headed there expecting swarms of fundamentalist Catholics chanting Latin,  shuffling beads, confessing to horrific sins, and prophesying end-of-the-world doom; but, instead, find kindly Father Patrick John Doyle Erol O'Flynn, sitting in a circle of folding chairs leading a 12-step drug-addiction group in the basement cafeteria.  I wait respectfully until the group breaks up, whereon Father O'Flynn generously offers me a rickety chair and his undivided attention.

"How might we help ye?  Are ye thinking of becoming a Catholic, lad?" Father O'Flynn cheerfully asked in his lilting brogue.

"No, Father, I was just hoping to meet some fundamentalist-Christians. Have you got any?"  I could see him visibly deflate, seeing I was not to be a recruit.

"Fundamentalists, is it?  Saints preserve us, no!  What would ye be looking for the likes o' them for?" he wondered.

"It's so I can better understand why so many people are frightened of them."

"And well they should, and you should too.  Don't go mixing it up with the likes o' them or they'll have the better of ye and leave your sow'l t' the Devil!"  Father O'Flynn warned.

"Do you mean to say there are no Catholic fundamentalists?"

"Oh, I suppose it's possible we've got one or two who still clings t' the ould ways, but most good Catholics these days is libral, don't ye see."

"No, I'm sorry but I don't really know your history.  I was of the impression Catholics are stuck in outmoded doctrines of trinity, creationism, religious-bigotry, infallibility, sexism, genderism, superstition, anti-contraception, and intolerant of a woman's choice."

"Heaven take us!  Where have you been getting such evil notions of the Most Holy Catholic Church?"

"I got it from the mainstream press, of course."

"Ah, well.  Ye must not know how t' read between the lines.  The press is our friends, don't ye know.  I know every now and then they lump us in with them heathens, but we're above all that now.  The Church keeps its nose out of polytics and the media leaves us alone."

"So, where do I find some actual fundamentalists?"

"For that, ye'll be wanting t' see the Baptists.  Oh, they're a crafty lot and they'll deny it, but I happen t' know they have secret meetings where unspeakable things go on."

"What sort of things?"

"I just told you, 'unspeakable' things.  That means I can't speak of 'em, don't ye see?  It wouldn't be proper.  Besides, and I culd get sued."

* * *

So, off I went looking for Baptists.  I found a confusing profusion of Baptists listed in the phonebook: Northern Baptists, Southern Baptists, American Baptists, Alliance Baptists, First Baptists, Cooperative Baptists, Baptist Peace Fellowship, Mission Baptists, Liberty Baptist, and World Baptists.  I briefly considered going back to Father O'Flynn for his opinion regarding which of these were fundamentalists, but decided on "Southern Baptists" as having the right ring to it; besides being nearest.

The Southern Baptist Church is located only four blocks from Our Lady of Dwindling Attendance at the corner of Davis and Lee, and looks more like a mega-mall than a church; complete with library, meeting rooms, business office, recreation rooms, a large pool, classrooms, dormitories, fast-food franchise, free-clinic, pharmacy, and convenience store.  It took awhile finding the chapel where I found the Right Reverend J.D. Ryswell.

"Come on in, son.  The water's fine," welcomed Reverend Ryswell.

"I'm sorry, Reverend . . . water?" I asked while gazing about expecting to see a soggily carpeted grotto.

"Just a little Baptist humor, and call me J.D.  What can I do for you today?"

"Well, I was hoping you could introduce me to some fundamentalist types, Reverend . . . uh, J.D.  You see, I'm doing private research to learn if they are really as frightful as everyone says, and I was told this would be a good place to start."

"I suppose they must be, but why come here?  Oh, I know we have a reputation for being a bit over-zealousness at times, but we're hardly 'fundamentalists.'  Say, did that old fruit O'Flynn send you here?"

"I'm . . . uh . . . not at liberty to say."

"Well, that'd be just like one of his jokes.  I'll have to think of something good to pull on him."

"So, you're not fundamentalist-Christians?"

"Well, yes . . . and no.  You see there are fundamentalists and there are fundamentalists."

"I'm afraid you've lost me."

"Okay, when you say fundamentalist, what is it you expect to find."

"Well, I suppose people who don't read anything but the Bible and take it way too literally, are superstitious, bigoted, anti-intellectual, dangerous and violent (especially defending their beliefs), carry guns to threaten others with, homophobic, force their women to stay at home, in-bred, have criminal records . . ."

"Tell me, do you believe in G-d?"

"I suppose I do, I mean I was raised to believe it, though I have had some doubts."

"We all have doubts, but that's not the question.  Do you believe?"

Because I was expecting a trick question, I thought hard before answering.  "I suppose I believe there is a creator."

"Do you believe this Creator takes any personal interest in you, ever?"

"There've been a couple of times I thought so, but I was pretty young and . . ."

"Do you believe your Creator had any hand in creating the Torah or spoke directly to Moses."

"I . . . uh . . . well . . ."

"That's okay." he assured me.  "We Baptists don't claim to have all the answers any more than you do.  Only G*d has all the answers.  But, let me ask you one more question.  You admit to believing in a creator who takes a personal interest in his creation, but you get stuck when it comes to the 'written word of G*d' part.  So, are YOU a fundamentalist?"

"Absolutely not!" I hotly retorted.

"No, you're not," he said, "but, I am."

"But, I thought you said . . ."

"I said 'yes and no.'  Yes, I am a fundamentalist, but, No, I am not the kind of fundamentalist you are expecting.  You've gotten a poisonous notion of who fundamentalist-Christians are and how we behave.  Yes, we believe the Scriptures are the 'Word of G*d,' written down by men who were inspired by G*d; and some of it should be taken literally and some of it requires we stretch our minds to grasp it in all its beauty."

"But doesn't that mean you reject things like evolution without giving them a fair hearing because that would mean G*d doesn't exist?"

"Does evolution prove G*d doesn't exist, or does it only suggest we know so very little?  Darwin believed his theory refuted G*d's existence; but that was his unproven opinion, and one he held even before he developed his theory.  Evolutionists and their atheistic followers are the ones who seem certain they have all the answers, and they are the ones who have closed their minds to a greater truth.  Back when Darwin first proposed that we are descended from apes, it caused a great many people to have a crisis of faith, and early fundamentalism was a crude response by people who were shaken in that faith yet determined not to abandon that faith willy-nilly.  It took a lot of courage to stand up to the cynics of disbelief.  Since then, fundamentalism has grown in sophistication. Also since then, Darwin has been shown to have goofed on some major points which modern evolution fails to explain away.  He knew nothing of DNA, the inner workings of cells, and he insisted characteristics were acquired entirely through adaptation and could not have been simply inherited.   We know, now, they are more often inherited than not."

"Hold on there, I studied evolution in school, and I know that isn't true!" and isn't this strange a Bible-thumper is bringing up DNA to refute Darwin, I thought?

"You studied 20th century evolutionary theory, not Darwin's theory of evolution.  By the time you were in school, the theory had been revamped several times to rectify its flaws, and is constantly being revised."

"You must still deny dinosaurs ever walked the earth, though, because they aren't found in the Bible."

"They aren't found in the Torah either, yet you still believe the Torah to be fundamentally true don't you?  Besides, they are also not 'not' in Genesis."

"Yes, but I also believe there is something to evolution."

"Yes, there may be something to it, but there is nothing in it that has yet to prove G*d does not exist, takes a hand in our affairs, or that scripture is not his handiwork."

"What do you mean by not 'not' in Genesis?" 

"Genesis says G*d created the creatures of the sea and land.  Later on, he made Adam and there is no mention of dinosaurs.  Later yet, it tells us he preserved one of each creature on the Ark.  How does that tell us dinosaurs, or what we take to be dinosaurs, never walked the Earth before Adam?"

"But, it says the universe, our world and all life were created in just six days.   How could the dinosaurs have roamed the Earth for millions of years before we arrived?"

"Man days or G*d days?", he asked.

"What do you mean by G*d days?  Days are just days."

"If you read Genesis carefully, you will see that the order of creation essentially matches the order modern-science gives it; 3,000 years before modern-science even existed.  First created is the heavens, the earth is formed, pools of water form, the sun ignites and there is light shining on the partly formed earth and part is in darkness and part in light where before the entire planet received the same diffuse light of the stars, islands formed and an atmosphere dense enough to call a sky, then the first continents, plants, animals, and finally man.  Genesis implies the Moon came late into the picture and science theorizes the Moon may well be a 'captured' planetoid.  Never mind for the moment how long a creation-day was, this simple agreement between science and scripture is nothing less than astounding, don't you think?  If Genesis is not the word of G*d then, to which bronze-age genius do we give the credit for getting the order so exact?  So, here we have science confirming Genesis is essentially correct, yet rejecting it over a minor point of exact length of days.  Maybe a day is a billion years or maybe the length of days varies depending on context.  Maybe some days are literal days and some poetic, and maybe we're just too primitive to know the meaning of 'days.'"

The Reverend J.D. was not at all what I'd expected.  He had my head spinning from all his ideas.  I know fundamentalists are supposed to be dumb and superstitious, yet J.D. wasn't the least bit stupid and, if he's superstitious, it must be a rational kind of superstitious.  Father O'Flynn wasn't kidding about one thing though.  Baptists are definitely crafty, and if I stuck around here much longer he'd have me converted. I suppose they have to be pretty quick on their feet to dispel the idea they're a bunch of redneck-Nazis.

"Okay, Rev. . . . uh, J.D.  I get it you're not some rube fundamentalist. But, you implied others are." 

"Yes, there are and you'll find them in the unlikeliest of places.  They are anyone unwilling to bend to the truth, but they can also include some who modify their view all too readily, radically, and to very little proof."

"But, which Christians are they?" I implored.

"Ah, you still don't see it.  Fundamentalism, the kind you're looking for, is all around you, but rarely where you expect," and would say no more.

* * *

I left the chapel more confused than ever.  If Baptists aren't the fundamentalists I was seeking, then where are they to be found?  As I was driving home, I heard on the radio that some fundamentalist-Christians were causing a disturbance outside an abortion clinic.  I was not far from the clinic and decided to head right over. I knew that nothing drew fundamentalists better than a good abortion protest.  At last, I'd get to see real fundamentalists in action.

As I arrived, I saw there was a commotion in progress with a large group of agitators on one side of the street and a much smaller, subdued group opposite.  The agitators were throwing rocks and bottles and cursing, so naturally, I figured, they must be the fundamentalists.  After parking my car, I strolled over to the agitators and struck up a conversation with one of them who was not actively engaged.

"Excuse me, Ms, but are you fundamentalists?"

"Are you out of your f^(#ing mind! Those are the fundamentalists!" she said pointing at the passive crowd.

"But, you are screaming obscenities and throwing things," I rejoined (I thought quite reasonably) "doesn't that make you the fundamentalists?"

"Hell no," she spat at me, "I'm not into any of their superstition or abuse of women crap.  Those people are killing women, for Christ's sake."  I didn't see any blood-drenched bodies.

"So, you are a Christian, then, but not a fundamentalist?" I suggested.

"F^(# no." she says, "I told you, I'm not into that f^(#ing mumbo-jumbo god-crap!  I'm an honest-to-NOW, progressive-thinking, feminist-atheist."

"But, I had the distinct impression fundamentalists were violent, nasty people who shove their ideas down other people's throats and are raving lunatics who go on and on about hell and damnation.  So far as I can tell those people are just standing around handing out pamphlets to passersby."

"Oh, sure, they're putting on a d@mn act for the moment, but believe you me, pal, they're up to no good.  And, what they do is the ultimate violence against women.  Those pamphlets they're handing out are propaganda chemically treated to brainwash anyone who handles 'em into believing the drivel printed in them things.  If they try to give you one, don't you take it.  Better yet, if they get too close, just chase 'em off with a rock.  It's the only thing them f^(#ing loons understand!  Hey, you sh!t-face, who you lookin at b!t(h!" she suddenly screamed at a fundie-woman who appeared to be listening in our conversation.

As the feminist stooped to grab a rock, the fundie disappeared into the crowd opposite, and the feminist rejoined her friends.  I tapped the shoulder of a man who seemed a bit more restrained.

"Pardon me, sir.  Can you tell me a little about what is going on here?"

"Are you a reporter?" He asked hopefully.

"No, I'm just trying to understand what's going on."

"You're not one of them 'anti-choice' types, are you?"

"Who?"

"Never mind.  You see those nuts over there?"

"The fundamentalists?"

"Yeah, well, they're trying to stop desperate women from having abortions that could save their lives.  They frighten them out of having abortions by telling them horror stories and that they'll go straight to hell for it.  Then, they try to turn them into born-again zombies just like them and become baby-factories for their men.  They all belong to cults, have extra wives, but only for themselves, and are trying to turn the whole d@mn country into a theocracy like Iran.  These people will do anything to get their way, and are not above breaking the law.  They've murdered a whole bunch of doctors and bombed thousands of clinics. They go around telling people abortion is murder, but that's like saying it is murder to remove a cancer or amputate a limb.  Did you know 300,000 women die each year because of their obstruction?  I read that somewhere, in the Times, I think . . . or maybe it was on Air America.

"Criminalizing abortion is harmful to women's health, you know. Why, down in El Salvador, a country where abortion is still illegal, there are hundreds of women suffering from botched back-alley abortions, scraped out using rusty coat-hangers, who are then afraid to go to a hospital because doctors will just report them and have them locked up for years. They're literally dying in the streets down there.  That's how it used to be here, back before abortion was legal, and these jerk-offs want us to go back to that.

"They also make people think women today are, like, using abortion for contraception and that they shouldn't do that.  What a load of crap! You think women want to get knocked up just so they can have an abortion?  No way!  They just want to have a little fun, a decent life they can call their own without being hassled by a bunch of prudes how they're doing something evil, and how they should be like nuns or something.  Aren't women entitled to enjoy their lives too, man, just like you and me?  So, every time some woman finds herself pregnant, through no fault of her own, they want them to just lie down and take it . . . you know what I mean?

"What these so-called 'pro-life' types are really uptight about is sex. They can't stand it when two people are, like, really in love and don't feel the need for some dumb preacher to say it's okay. They want us to go back to the bad-old-days when you got locked up for even talking about it.  All they want to talk about is how we're all going to die from too much sex, and think we're all so dumb we don't know how to use a f^(#ing condom to protect ourselves.  Yeah, well I got news for you g-dd@mn uptight pr!(ks, no uptight good-for-nothing, god-freaking pervert is shutting down my sex life!" he screamed at the fundies.

At that point, I'd lost him as he was swept up in the passion of his own rant with a fleck of spittle running from his mouth.  I wanted to talk to some of the fundamentalists, but couldn't see how I could crossover without drawing attention to myself.  So, I went back to my car and drove around the block to come up on the other side.  I parked the car where no one in either crowd could see it and, hopefully, wouldn't realize I'd "changed sides."  I also put on a jacket and a baseball cap to change my appearance.

As I walked up to the fundies, I saw the woman who'd been listening in earlier bent over a man in his early fifties and holding a blood-stained cloth to his head.  I said hello, and asked what the matter with the man was.

"Oh, one of those abort-people threw a rock at us, and Charlie here took one in the noggin.  Say, aren't you the fella I saw talking with those . . ."

"Uh, yes, but can we keep that between us.  I don't want your friends getting the wrong idea and have me lynched."

"Why would we do that?"

"Well, you are Christian-fundamentalists, aren't you?  And, don't you all have Klan meetings and lynch people who disagree with you and stuff like that?"

She looked at me like I'd just come from another planet.  "Let's get something straight.  I am a Christian-woman, that much is true; but I am not some religious-freak and neither are any of these other people. Some of us aren't religious, at all.  Yes, we are mostly opposed to abortion, but you don't have to be a scripture-quoting bible-thumper to be against killing.  We came down here, like we do every weekend, to do what we can to help these poor girls.  They come here looking for someone to tell them what they are doing isn't despicable when they, themselves, believe it is.  They are looking for someone to give them back some dignity and hope.  Instead, they are hurried through a process that has no further use for them once the deed is done.  Many of the women who come here are determined to have an abortion, and we can't do much to reach them.  But, there are always some who are being pushed into killing an unwanted baby they haven't really decided to abort, and it is tearing them up inside.  Look into their faces, go on – look into that girl's face (there was a girl just getting out of a car in front of the clinic).  Can't you can see she's having an awful time and was pushed into this."

"How do you know she's not looking that way because you are staring at her to make her feel guilty and leave?" I asked.

"Did you notice the man with her?  Probably, that's her father.  Notice how he hurried her inside before she could talk to us.  He's probably told her if she doesn't do this, he'll throw her out.  Trust me, she's being pushed, most of them are.  They are pushed by parents, boyfriends, friends, teachers, therapists, and even by priests – sorry, Reverend (looks at Charlie), but you know it's true.

"Won't they check inside to be sure this is what she really wants?"

"We can't always be sure because they won't talk to us, the clinic staff I mean, but we don't think so.  They basically present the girls with several options including keeping the baby and adoption, but generally steer them toward aborting.  Some of the girls we get tell us they let their dads or boyfriends do all the talking, so we can't call what they do perfectly "unethical."   Stick around awhile and watch her when they come back out."

I stayed and, while we waited, Silvia told me how she'd gotten into visiting the clinics after her niece had had an abortion at her father's insistence.  Apparently, things went from bad to worse at home after the abortion, and the niece was looking for somewhere to stay.  The boyfriend had wanted the baby at first but soon changed his mind, and he'd pressured her too.  The girl talked of suicide, so Silvia took her to counseling, but was shocked to learn the therapist was defending abortion and convincing the girl she'd made the right choice, a "choice" her father had made for her.  Silvia interviewed the next therapist before letting him treat her niece, and tagged along on all her sessions.  The girl's father, however, objected to what Silvia was doing, and took the girl back home.  He then swore out a peace-order barring Silvia from any further contact with his daughter.  Many months later, the niece was found dead from an overdose; and had been heavily into using drugs.  It was determined a "non-suicide," but it was definitely self-destructive behavior.  Silvia was furious with her brother-in-law as well as her sister, and wanted to do something to make amends for not having fought harder to save her niece's life.  She found a post-abortion support group online and was soon pitching in.  She'd been standing outside clinics off-&-on for three years now, and said she still hadn't found the peace she needed but knew she was doing some good.

Half an hour later, the girl and her father emerged from the clinic. The father jumped into his car and drove off, leaving the girl standing on the curb.   I asked Silvia how she could have had an abortion so quick, and she explained that at this stage they give them pills that induce abortion, 3 now and 2 more in a couple of days if still pregnant.

"So, what happens now?" I asked Silvia.

"Watch." was her only reply.  She was watching the girl intently.  I wasn't sure what she was expecting.   The girl just stood there for a minute eyeing the two crowds.  Suddenly, she took a step in our direction and one of Silvia's associates rushed to put a pamphlet in her hands.  The girl was just tucking the pamphlet into a pocket when several of the pro-abortion people rushed over to break things up.  The associate was hurriedly giving her as much information as possible before the bullies could get between them and shoved him away.  They tore the pamphlet from the girl's hand and were shouting at her not to listen to a bunch of "fundamentalist, neo-Nazis."  For a moment she had looked hopeful, but now she was looking at her feet and shuffling away.

"I guess that was a win for their side." I said.

"No," Silvia replied, "they got the pamphlet away from her, but Manny managed to slip another into her jacket.  Maybe she'll call and we can help her through this."

"But, didn't you say they already gave her some pills?  How long can she go before you can't flush them out of her system?"

"It was already too late for that.  All we can do now is try to keep her from internalizing the damage done to her."

"You mean she's going to lose the baby anyway?  Then, what's the point of standing here stirring up all this fuss?"

"We're here to save lives.  We didn't stand a prayer of saving her baby's, but we can still try to save hers.  She doesn't have to spend the rest of her life alone with the guilt of this."

"But, I thought the point of these demonstrations in front of clinics was to stop abortions."

"Have you seen any of us demonstrating?  Where are our placards and grisly reminders of death?  You'll find the protesters over there," pointing at the pro-choice folks. "I'd love to stop abortion from happening, but that won't happen from standing in front of clinics and ranting.  I'm sure that is important also, but it's not part of what we do.  We're here because we've seen the heartless damage abortion does to young women, and we're doing what we can to help them recover."

"But, don't the clinics provide them with counseling?"

"Yeah, right!" she snorted.

"Well, at least abortion is a lot safer than having a baby."

"You think so, huh?," and she dug into a carry-bag from which she pulled out a much duplicated report comparing the health statistics for women having abortion versus live-births, according to which abortion puts women at greater risks and another that seriously questioned the way deaths due to abortion are reported to and by the Centers for Disease Control.

* * * 

The next morning as I was reading my Daily Blat, I came across an article on school choice.  In it the writer accused right-wing fundamentalist-Christians of using vouchers as a means of subverting public education, a program that will eventually take over all education and end in Christian theocracy.  The article complained vouchers are building up private schools at taxpayer expense, stripping much needed funding from public schools, violating the wall of separation between church and state, politicizing education, indoctrinating children into superstitious rot, and destroying the secular fabric of modern society.  According to the writer, the takeover was already well advanced and already too late to stop.  She named the Chalcedon and Bradley Foundations as key supporters of the conspiracy.  The article referenced an unnamed, black-activist as her main source who, she said, has "unequivocal" proof school choice is an ". . . obscene and cynical war to destroy public employee [teacher] unions . . ." by racist white-Christian organizations bent on splitting Democrats by ". . . dangling vouchers in front of poor, susceptible black families . . . " struggling to get, for their children, the education they were denied, and stealing black support away from traditional liberal allies in the struggle for social justice.  This activist named these foundations and others, the author of an infamous book The Bell Curve, the American Enterprise Institute, and that lackey of white-supremacist fundamentalism, none other than . . . Dinesh D'Sousa!

All this time I'd been going around in circles looking for D'Sousa's supposed fundamentalists, and here he is at the very epicenter of a fundamentalist conspiracy?!

I'm so confused!

* * * 

Other places I sought fundamentalists:
http://www.victorious.org/chur21.htm

http://blackcommentator.com/7_voucher_trickster_pr.html
T
he 'black activist' in the last section above is mainly modeled on this guy, but with bits and pieces taken from others.

http://groups.google.se/group/soc.religion.christian/msg/6d6f5ffc01cd2fce
"Christian Fundamentalists are Evil!" Rant by an anti-fundamentalist who admits not knowing a single person who fits her description of a Christian-fundamentalist, yet condemns them anyway solely on the basis of her own admittedly weak understanding of the Bible, its message, or how Christians actually use or interpret it.

"Although I do not know any such person, one could imagine a person who believes that every word in the Bible is true, but still consider God as that evil monster he indeed is described as in the Bible . . . In my opinion, every decent human being has a moral duty to work against all attempts by fundamentalists to gain political influence." 

By her own logic, then, her archenemy is a straw-dog; a creature of her own making put up just so she can have someone to knock down.

All Christian-fundamentalists are right-wing fruitcakes . . . right?  Then, who are these guys?
http://faithfuldemocrats.com/content/view/67/79/
http://liberalchristians.blogspot.com
http://liberalchristians.blogspot.com/2007_07_01_archive.html
http://www.catholicdemocrats.org/on_abortion.php

Okay, so there are left-wingfundamentalists too.  But, there must be some way of distinguishing fundamental-extremists from the ordinarily religious.

We know environmentalism is one movement no right-wing religious fundamentalist would go near, so Christian-environmentalist would be an oxymoron:
http://www.christianecology.org
http://www.eenonline.org
http://www.thechristianenvironmentalist.com
http://www.evaneco.com
http://careofcreation.org/abt.overview.cfm
http://www.sageoxford.org.uk
http://cesc.montreat.edu/ceo/CEA
http://www.christiansforthemountains.org
http://www.earthministry.org
http://creationcare.org
http://www.greenfaith.org

Well, scratch environmentalism as a litmus test. 

Surely, we can agree no self-respecting, major left-wing political figure would be caught dead pandering to bible-thumping fundamentalists, right? Hillary: the trinity-believing, scripture-quoting, salvation junkie?

Culture: Religion, Features, Humor



Bob Stapler is a mechanical engineer sneaking reports out of the Socialist Republic of Columbia, Maryland with the aid of conservative friends.
rstapler@aceweb.com

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  1. My question is: what would be so bad about a Christian fundamentalist anyway? What is it in Christian doctrine that, when taken to the "extreme", becomes dangerous or harmful to the whole of society? As someone who identifies as a Christian and has read the Bible in its entirety (perhaps I'm a "fundamentalist"? I haven't regularly attending church for a couple years, so maybe I'm off the hook), I've found nothing in there that advocates harming people who believe differently than you, or disrupting the functioning of society, or coercing anyone into doing anything. Matter of fact, Jesus himself chastised one of his disciples for attacking one of the officers who arrested him, healed the servant of a Roman officer (Jesus himself being a Jew, and his ministry intended for the Jews, and Romans being the rulers and persecutors of Jews), told his disciples to "shake the dust from their feet" when leaving a town where they were not received, and prevented an adulterous woman from being stoned to death, despite chastising her for her sin. Doesn't sound like such a dangerous proposition to me if there were people who took that teaching "too literally".

    Most ironically, the same left-wing fanatics who decry Christian "fundamentalists" are going out of their way to accommodate radical Islamic fundamentalists, who believe, among other things, that gays should be killed, that women who are raped should be killed, that women should no be allowed to vote or attend school, that people who don't believe in their religion should be subjugated or killed, in that order, and that there can be no separation between government and religion. The ACLU wants the Ten Commandments (which they apparently have mistaken for a Christian symbol, despite the fact that they were given to the Hebrews centuries before this Jesus fellow ever walked the earth) out of court houses, but they defend Muslim prayer rugs and foot baths in public schools and airports. Muslims can wear head dresses and stop work three times a day for prayers, but a Christian may not wear a cross around their neck at many public schools and public-sector jobs, or say "Jesus" in a graduation speech, lest they offend anyone. One wishes that they could see the full fruition of their efforts, and put in place a totalitarian Islamic state that silences and kills the very infidels who supported them.

    Comment by Patrick Mulligan | October 4, 2007

  2. Bob,

    Excellent presentation. The issues you bring up are certainly obfuscated in the MSM, but you bring some clarity.

    Caricatures and stereotypes are anti-intellectual crutches often used by the political left. Such things save a lot of time and effort that would otherwise be spent actually engaging the issues.

    For them, the AGENDA takes precedence over everything. Logic, truth, dialogue, even rationality, take a back seat. That's why it's so hard to have a conversation with leftists.

    Comment by Mountain Man | October 4, 2007

  3. Very Interesting article….it made me chuckle as I always do when I hear those in the liberal media refer to "conservative Christians", as if we are some alien species, come to take over the earth. I have always wanted a bumper sticker that says "conservative Christians…we are not who you think we are" If you are looking, you might not even know it when you find them… hard working, well educated, constantly volunteering, recyling, environmentally conscious, friendly, fun loving fiends that we are!

    Comment by michelletfrazier | October 4, 2007

  4. A well written article that produced a smile.

    However, the response from Patick Mulligan also produced a smile, albeit one of sadness. You are using the same reasoning to lable Muslims as the left does to lable Christians in the US.

    A fundamentalist is someone who believes in the fundamentals of their religion. If they do not believe in the fundamentals, are they truely being honest with themselves about being a good ?

    This may make me a target so to speak of some of the more outspoken members on this board, however as the author mentioned they are Jewish, although not a particularly good one, I am a Muslim, although not a particularly good one.

    I am British (would prefer English, however I have Scots blood from my mothers side) who lives in mainland Europe. I have friends who span the spectrum of devout practicing Christians, Jews and Muslims, left and right, nationalist and internationalist, poor and wealthy.

    Despite spending time in Egypt and Indonesia (both Muslim countries of a very different character), I have not come across people who believe gays should be killed, women should not be allowed to vote or go to school, people of different religions should be subjugated or killed, and that there should be no separation between state and religion.

    Is it honest to complain about being labeled with a stereotype, yet forcing another stereotype on another group?

    Comment by Leigh | October 5, 2007

  5. Leigh,

    Here's the difference: There is nothing in Christianity that instructs the adherents of the religion to do any of the things I mentioned about Muslims. However, your holy doctrinal book, the Qur'an, does indeed have passages that instruct "fundamentalists" or "true believers" to do those things. That you don't do those things makes you a "bad" Muslim. I am not stereotyping anything or anyone. Go to one of your places of worship and ask one of your religious teachers to clarify those issues for you. If the teacher is a true, or "fundamentalist" Muslim, that is, a true believer who takes what he perceives as the instructions from his God seriously, he will corroborate all of that information for you. When all those "radical" Muslims say they want a worldwide caliphate under strict Shari'a law, they are doing exactly what they are supposed to do according to their religion. My point was: a group of radical, or "fundamentalist" Christians has no basis in their religious literature to harm anyone, or impose themselves on anyone, or coerce anyone, or anything of the sort. No matter how literally or how "radically" you practice the doctrines of Christianity, what's the worst that can happen? You forgive people too many times? Pray too much? There is nothing in Christian literature that instructs adherents to bomb abortion clinics, or force religious conversion on others, or overthrow the government, or any of the other stereotypical things that this article highlighted. That's the principal difference between Islam and Christianity that I am laboring to highlight here. "Moderate" Muslims, like yourself, who believe that women should be allowed to vote and seek education, that there can be a separation of government and religion, etc, are not fully practicing the written commandments of their faith. Christians who would fit the profile of the stereotypical "fundamentalist", as caricatured in the article (violent, imposing, bombing abortion clinics, etc), wouldn't be practicing Christianity as it is outlined in Christian doctrinal literature. Which is why "fundamentalist" would be a humorously inappropriate title: none of those things are taught at all in Christian literature, let alone are they "foundational" to the faith! You seem to have completely misunderstood. I was not complaining about "labeling" or "stereotyping". I was saying: What would be so bad about a true Christian fundamentalist anyhow?

    Comment by Patrick Mulligan | October 5, 2007

  6. Leigh,

    While I have no doubt that you are a wonderful person, the fact that you don't believe in killing gays (or that you've never met anyone who wants to) in no way addresses the matter of the hundreds of thousands of your co-religionists across the planet who do. In every Muslim country that imposes Sharia, all of them adhere to the lovliness that Patrick Mulligan mentioned and more: such as death for apostates, the subjugation of women, and the imposition of dhimmitude on different religions. In the West, the best estimates we have for those of the faith of Islam who believe in violence to innocents is 10% (some places in the West are much higher…and the Middle East shoots through the roof). Lost in this is what these people classify as "innocence"…as a famous British imam was quite upfront and honest in saying that only Muslims could be "innocent". And since no one's ever asked how many Muslims believe in adopting Sharia…though every Muslim group I've ever heard of pushes for it.

    And when a "moderate" Muslim group steps forward to "address concerns", their only real goal is to shout down "Islamophobes".

    Far from being a mischaracterization, PM's description hits the nail on the head, and you're not going to win any friends by pretending that we're all dumb rubes who are too bigoted to see the truth.

    Comment by WolvenBear | October 5, 2007

  7. To WolvenBear,

    At no point (niether did I have the intention) of pretending that you are all "dumb rubes who are too bigoted to see the truth".
    I really do not know where you got that idea from?

    Rather than address both of your points (Patrick and WolvenBear), it is probably easier to explain where I am coming from (and less likely to be interpreted as an attack or apologetic - I hope).

    I believe that God gave us a brain and the ability to think and choose between Good and Evil. The Quran is open to criticism and welcomes adherents to think through the issues raised (although you may disagree). There are many schools of thought that exist within Islam, many of which are ignored or not heard of in the West. They embrace a wide range of interpretations of the Quran seeking guidance from the Hadith (which alone is subject to many interpretations).

    I have a strong dislike of ideologies (I use that word specifically) that seek to limit my ability to think. I am not a sheep to be led blindly (a possible arrogance on mybehalf, but then I am not perfect). I believe that Islam (you can substitute others if you wish) is of the heart. God can see if you are true and not merely paying lip service.

    It is why I have a strong dislike of Salafism (Wahabism being regarding as a derogatory form, although it is good to get a rise out of some people). Salafists are rulebound and more interested in conformism than following the heart. This is aptly illustrated by the actions of so called Religious/Morality Police in Saudi Arabia - a contradiction in terms if there ever was one. Salafism is not Islam. It is a rigid austere narrow interpretation backed up by oil money to support a corrupt family that holds custodianship over Islam's Holy sites. Does that leave any ambiguity where I stand?

    The other form of Islam which has a vocal (toxic would be more accurate) presence on the world stage is that of Shia Iran. The viewpoint that was pushed during the revolution by Ayotallah Khomeini was a minority one. Many scholars within Shia Islam opposed it and still oppose it now. Unfortunately, the current leadership control the money and means of force. Dissenters are placed under house arrest (for the highly regarded scholars) or far far worse. That is not Islam. That is why Iran is such a mess dispite the efforts of Iran to portray otherwise.

    Please do not expect me to refute or justify every argument. I can not. I have my own views which at times are at odds with publically self proclaimed spokesmen of Islam. I lead my life the best I can as do many others.

    Comment by Leigh | October 8, 2007

  8. Leigh,

    You are a rare person indeed if you are taking exception to the Muslim fundamentalists, for very seldom does a Muslim criticize the extremist elements of Islam. The silence is deafening.

    A recent pole of young Muslims (American, I think) indicated that something like 25 percent of them believed that killing in the name of Islam was acceptable in some circumstances. Anyone, whether in or outside of the faith, is violently condemned for dishonoring Mohammed (Danish cartoons, anyone?).

    One can hope that cooler heads will prevail amongst Muslims, but I have yet to see any cooler heads at all. Are you the first?

    Comment by Mountain Man | October 8, 2007

  9. Go to wayoflife.org if you want to find a real Baptist fundamentalist. Especially read his Friday News Notes.

    Comment by ehaase | October 11, 2007

  10. Hey, Bob, I've got a question for you.

    I noticed that you're using the Jewish typographical convention of leaving the vowel out of the word, "G-d". That convention was developed because it's a pain to dispose of a book that actually has the Name printed in it somewhere; you can't burn the book, you have to bury it with appropriate prayers and incantations.

    So my question is, when you delete a document with the Name in it, can you use the Trashcan icon, or do you have to invoke an appropriately-named bit scrambler?

    Comment by philwynk | December 10, 2007

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