Comments on: Does Nation Building Work? http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2008/01/05/does-nation-building-work/ Conservative and Libertarian Intellectual Philosophy and Politics Wed, 08 Feb 2012 23:00:53 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: dculling http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2008/01/05/does-nation-building-work/comment-page-1/#comment-70443 dculling Sat, 09 Feb 2008 23:28:50 +0000 http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2008/01/05/does-nation-building-work/#comment-70443 I read somewhere that for Democracy to succeed the per capita income must be around the equivalent of $6000 or higher. Sorry I don't have a link. I do believe that the desire to be free is an innate quality of human beings. However, self-preservation has a higher priority. So Democracy will fail when self-preservation is at risk as is the case with low per capita income. At some point it's better to be fed and protected by a tyrant than to be free to stave or be robbed or killed by desperate citizens. A low income per capita Democracy can not support a police force of a size necessary for the disproportionately large percentage of desperate citizens. Therefore we have to stay in Iraq until the per capita income is sufficient to support a Democracy. I read somewhere that for Democracy to succeed the per capita income must be around the equivalent of $6000 or higher. Sorry I don’t have a link.

I do believe that the desire to be free is an innate quality of human beings. However, self-preservation has a higher priority. So Democracy will fail when self-preservation is at risk as is the case with low per capita income. At some point it’s better to be fed and protected by a tyrant than to be free to stave or be robbed or killed by desperate citizens. A low income per capita Democracy can not support a police force of a size necessary for the disproportionately large percentage of desperate citizens.

Therefore we have to stay in Iraq until the per capita income is sufficient to support a Democracy.

]]> By: Bob Stapler http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2008/01/05/does-nation-building-work/comment-page-1/#comment-68119 Bob Stapler Tue, 08 Jan 2008 01:43:47 +0000 http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2008/01/05/does-nation-building-work/#comment-68119 Well, that makes 14 countries that are better off today than they were before we messed with them. Every fourth country gets a new lease on freedom. Not too shabby by my way of thinking. Okay, 3 our of 4 weren't ready, but that's no reason to turn our backs on fellow human beings. This just tells me we've our work cut out. Besides, direct intervention is only one way we've spread the gospel of freedom. Many countries took their que from our revolution and had tea parties of their own. Others tried communism only to become market liberals and are still making every effort to break out of the autocratic mold. Freedom can be contagious, given the right encouragement. Well, that makes 14 countries that are better off today than they were before we messed with them. Every fourth country gets a new lease on freedom. Not too shabby by my way of thinking. Okay, 3 our of 4 weren’t ready, but that’s no reason to turn our backs on fellow human beings. This just tells me we’ve our work cut out. Besides, direct intervention is only one way we’ve spread the gospel of freedom. Many countries took their que from our revolution and had tea parties of their own. Others tried communism only to become market liberals and are still making every effort to break out of the autocratic mold. Freedom can be contagious, given the right encouragement.

]]> By: Patrick Mulligan http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2008/01/05/does-nation-building-work/comment-page-1/#comment-67985 Patrick Mulligan Sat, 05 Jan 2008 19:39:03 +0000 http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2008/01/05/does-nation-building-work/#comment-67985 Your reasoning behind the failure of democracy-building is a little off I think. Political non-violence is absolutely NOT a natural state of affairs that arises spontaneously in certain societies as a result of the failure of political violence. Political violence actually very rarely fails as a political system - tyrannies have customarily outlasted democracies as political structures by great margins. Democracy is not a process that results from some Darwinian system of natural selection. It is a process that arises from the mind and will of people as a result of the dominant collective culture. Iraq has never embraced democratic government because its people do not wish to self-govern. Their dominant collective culture is geared toward Muslim autocracy. We Americans have the mindset that everyone in the world is libertarian and wishes to live in autonomy (the sad fact is that most of America does not even feel that way anymore). Some cultures do not seek autonomy and independence though. Some people do not have an inner desire to have representative government in which they are responsible for the affairs of their country. Many are so uneducated, simple and disinterested that they actually prefer to live in an autocracy where they do not have to make such complex, complicated, large-scale decisions. Democracy, or a democratic republic like we have here, is not the ideal system of government for every person on the face of the planet. If we are going to topple hostile regimes in such countries, it is a bit naive, or ignorant, or both, to try and install our system of government where it has never before been attempted or been successful. Unfortunately, the very same people who decry our damned imperialistic nation building also refuse to allow us to depose hostile regimes that are dangerous to our national security and national interest UNLESS we leave the country in better condition than our own when we are finished. In all reality, if Iraq posed a threat to our national security (and we'll just assume for arguments sake that it did, rather than debate the validity of 9/11 conspiracy theories, big oil war profiteering and evil, overarching shadow governments), we would have been better off toppling the Saddam Hussein regime and installing an American governing authority or pro-American replacement for the previous authoritarian regime. But had we done that, all of the leftists with their new-found anti-interventionist ideals would be decrying our abandonment of our social responsibility to ensure the long-term security (both physical and financial), and overall well-being of the people of Iraq instead of our damned nation-building interventionism. I guess there's really no winning with those people. Your reasoning behind the failure of democracy-building is a little off I think. Political non-violence is absolutely NOT a natural state of affairs that arises spontaneously in certain societies as a result of the failure of political violence. Political violence actually very rarely fails as a political system – tyrannies have customarily outlasted democracies as political structures by great margins. Democracy is not a process that results from some Darwinian system of natural selection. It is a process that arises from the mind and will of people as a result of the dominant collective culture. Iraq has never embraced democratic government because its people do not wish to self-govern. Their dominant collective culture is geared toward Muslim autocracy. We Americans have the mindset that everyone in the world is libertarian and wishes to live in autonomy (the sad fact is that most of America does not even feel that way anymore). Some cultures do not seek autonomy and independence though. Some people do not have an inner desire to have representative government in which they are responsible for the affairs of their country. Many are so uneducated, simple and disinterested that they actually prefer to live in an autocracy where they do not have to make such complex, complicated, large-scale decisions. Democracy, or a democratic republic like we have here, is not the ideal system of government for every person on the face of the planet. If we are going to topple hostile regimes in such countries, it is a bit naive, or ignorant, or both, to try and install our system of government where it has never before been attempted or been successful. Unfortunately, the very same people who decry our damned imperialistic nation building also refuse to allow us to depose hostile regimes that are dangerous to our national security and national interest UNLESS we leave the country in better condition than our own when we are finished. In all reality, if Iraq posed a threat to our national security (and we’ll just assume for arguments sake that it did, rather than debate the validity of 9/11 conspiracy theories, big oil war profiteering and evil, overarching shadow governments), we would have been better off toppling the Saddam Hussein regime and installing an American governing authority or pro-American replacement for the previous authoritarian regime. But had we done that, all of the leftists with their new-found anti-interventionist ideals would be decrying our abandonment of our social responsibility to ensure the long-term security (both physical and financial), and overall well-being of the people of Iraq instead of our damned nation-building interventionism. I guess there’s really no winning with those people.

]]> By: ConservativePopulist http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2008/01/05/does-nation-building-work/comment-page-1/#comment-67984 ConservativePopulist Sat, 05 Jan 2008 19:20:41 +0000 http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2008/01/05/does-nation-building-work/#comment-67984 Fantastic article. Fantastic article.

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