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	<title>Comments on: Problems With Energy</title>
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	<description>Conservative and Libertarian Intellectual Philosophy and Politics</description>
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		<title>By: yonkel</title>
		<link>http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2008/03/19/problems-with-energy/comment-page-1/#comment-71592</link>
		<dc:creator>yonkel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Mar 2008 21:53:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2008/03/19/problems-with-energy/#comment-71592</guid>
		<description>GriffithLea:

Yes, I plead ignorant on the acceleration. I actually was a mechanic at one time, back when cars had points and you could hotwire an ignition with a paper clip.

And I checked out the mpgs and the best like the Prius are getting 48 max, but that is double what other cars of the same size are getting.

Obviously, 6 people will not fit in a subcompact, but even within car classes there are up to 75% difference between the least and most efficient cars. Besides, check out the situation on your way to work. The vast majority of SUVs and large cars have only 1-2 passengers. I have a Van that I use for occasional family outings but my wife and I use the Escort and Hyundai for commuting.

The amount of gas that would be saved by having people switch to the most efficient vehicles for their class, would be enormous and immediate.

My own 99 Escort with a 5 speed gets about 35, but my next Prius will reduce my gas consumption by 32%.

Currently transportation accounts for 28% of all energy use. If the average person drove a car that was 20% more efficient US energy consumption would decline 5.6%. On the contrary we have been increasing consumption at about 2% per year

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_use_in_the_United_States

I don&#039;t know what you mean by &quot; we&#039;ve pushed the conservation thing into diminishing returns&quot;. My take is that we have totally ignored conservation to the point that we are in trouble and on the verge of recession and possible compromise of the environment. Per capita consumption of energy has been rising. Houses are bigger, cars are bigger, public transportation terrible and if the Chineese and Indians decide to follow our path, heaven help us.

The new energy legislation is the first attempt at improved CAFE standards since the 70s. 

I have no problems with more nucleur plants, but it is not an either/or with conservation. The argument that prices are high due to lack of refining capacity ignores the free market. Whether we refine more gas or buy it from refineries in Brazil and Mexico, the determining factor is the cost of oil.

To me being conservative implies caution and prudence not gambling with our children&#039;s future for fast cars and huge houses.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>GriffithLea:</p>
<p>Yes, I plead ignorant on the acceleration. I actually was a mechanic at one time, back when cars had points and you could hotwire an ignition with a paper clip.</p>
<p>And I checked out the mpgs and the best like the Prius are getting 48 max, but that is double what other cars of the same size are getting.</p>
<p>Obviously, 6 people will not fit in a subcompact, but even within car classes there are up to 75% difference between the least and most efficient cars. Besides, check out the situation on your way to work. The vast majority of SUVs and large cars have only 1-2 passengers. I have a Van that I use for occasional family outings but my wife and I use the Escort and Hyundai for commuting.</p>
<p>The amount of gas that would be saved by having people switch to the most efficient vehicles for their class, would be enormous and immediate.</p>
<p>My own 99 Escort with a 5 speed gets about 35, but my next Prius will reduce my gas consumption by 32%.</p>
<p>Currently transportation accounts for 28% of all energy use. If the average person drove a car that was 20% more efficient US energy consumption would decline 5.6%. On the contrary we have been increasing consumption at about 2% per year</p>
<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_use_in_the_United_States" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_use_in_the_United_States</a></p>
<p>I don&#039;t know what you mean by &#034; we&#039;ve pushed the conservation thing into diminishing returns&#034;. My take is that we have totally ignored conservation to the point that we are in trouble and on the verge of recession and possible compromise of the environment. Per capita consumption of energy has been rising. Houses are bigger, cars are bigger, public transportation terrible and if the Chineese and Indians decide to follow our path, heaven help us.</p>
<p>The new energy legislation is the first attempt at improved CAFE standards since the 70s. </p>
<p>I have no problems with more nucleur plants, but it is not an either/or with conservation. The argument that prices are high due to lack of refining capacity ignores the free market. Whether we refine more gas or buy it from refineries in Brazil and Mexico, the determining factor is the cost of oil.</p>
<p>To me being conservative implies caution and prudence not gambling with our children&#039;s future for fast cars and huge houses.</p>
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		<title>By: GriffithLea</title>
		<link>http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2008/03/19/problems-with-energy/comment-page-1/#comment-71585</link>
		<dc:creator>GriffithLea</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Mar 2008 15:14:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2008/03/19/problems-with-energy/#comment-71585</guid>
		<description>yonkel, you don&#039;t know much about cars.  :)  A car that takes 20 seconds to get from 0 to 60 mph is going to induce an adrenaline rush in quite a different way than what you meant. It will be from the fear of getting run over by a semi, not the excitement of quick acceleration. You&#039;re thinking of 0-60 in about 6 seconds.

And what cars get 70mpg? I mean real cars, being used in real-world scenarios, with the same level of safety, utility, and comfort that e.g. our two minivans currently provide.

I&#039;m not a big fan of Escalades and other vehicles of that ilk myself, but using your own example, how is a family of 6 supposed to get around in a subcompact? Sure, when you were a kid you probably all piled in, but these days you can&#039;t have the little kids sitting in the big kids&#039; laps - everyone has to have their own seat, with room for infant carriers, booster seats, etc. And we aren&#039;t even talking about luggage yet.

I appreciate the sentiment that we need to be more independent when it comes to our energy sources, but we&#039;ve pushed the conservation thing into the realm of diminishing returns. We need to increase the supply of energy. A couple hundred new nuclear power plants, and a couple of dozen new oil refineries would do wonders.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>yonkel, you don&#039;t know much about cars.  :)  A car that takes 20 seconds to get from 0 to 60 mph is going to induce an adrenaline rush in quite a different way than what you meant. It will be from the fear of getting run over by a semi, not the excitement of quick acceleration. You&#039;re thinking of 0-60 in about 6 seconds.</p>
<p>And what cars get 70mpg? I mean real cars, being used in real-world scenarios, with the same level of safety, utility, and comfort that e.g. our two minivans currently provide.</p>
<p>I&#039;m not a big fan of Escalades and other vehicles of that ilk myself, but using your own example, how is a family of 6 supposed to get around in a subcompact? Sure, when you were a kid you probably all piled in, but these days you can&#039;t have the little kids sitting in the big kids&#039; laps &#8211; everyone has to have their own seat, with room for infant carriers, booster seats, etc. And we aren&#039;t even talking about luggage yet.</p>
<p>I appreciate the sentiment that we need to be more independent when it comes to our energy sources, but we&#039;ve pushed the conservation thing into the realm of diminishing returns. We need to increase the supply of energy. A couple hundred new nuclear power plants, and a couple of dozen new oil refineries would do wonders.</p>
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		<title>By: Ethanol Business - Ethanol Business And Benefits Of Dynamic Renewable Fuel</title>
		<link>http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2008/03/19/problems-with-energy/comment-page-1/#comment-71570</link>
		<dc:creator>Ethanol Business - Ethanol Business And Benefits Of Dynamic Renewable Fuel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Mar 2008 03:11:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2008/03/19/problems-with-energy/#comment-71570</guid>
		<description>[...] The debate about the future of energy must turn on whether or not there are scientifically valid reasons for reexamining the currently popular views regardless of who is promoting those reasons. It is also necessary to avoid jumping to conclusions or decision making based on emotional reaction to the popular cant. That is essential the scientific method. So, without further ado, here are a few highlights that should put us in mind to question exactly what is possible and what is necessary within the reasonably foreseeable future. Full article. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] The debate about the future of energy must turn on whether or not there are scientifically valid reasons for reexamining the currently popular views regardless of who is promoting those reasons. It is also necessary to avoid jumping to conclusions or decision making based on emotional reaction to the popular cant. That is essential the scientific method. So, without further ado, here are a few highlights that should put us in mind to question exactly what is possible and what is necessary within the reasonably foreseeable future. Full article. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: yonkel</title>
		<link>http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2008/03/19/problems-with-energy/comment-page-1/#comment-71569</link>
		<dc:creator>yonkel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Mar 2008 22:44:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2008/03/19/problems-with-energy/#comment-71569</guid>
		<description>Mr. Laib:

Thank you for a thoughtful piece. I think there were excellent points made, although my conclusions might differ from yours.

The current energy situation the US finds itself in, should not, but has, unfortunately, been framed as a debate on global warming.

The reality is that the economic and geopolitical consequences of the US increasing dependence on foreign oil is the 1000 pound gorrila in our kid&#039;s playroom. 

The wealth of this country is being taken from us and divvied up amongst the countries of Putin, Ahmadeenijad, Hugo Chavez, the Saudi Arabian Royal Family, and the Emirates. 

Besides throwing us into recession, we are supporting, some of the worst despots in the world who are now flush with American cash. 

As just one example of how that has played out diplomatically,  is the fact that for the first time in many years  there are at least four South American countries now in the Castro camp. All of them supported by Mr. Chavez with oil wealth largely eminating from the US. Iran likewise. And what the soviets were unable to achieve in 70 years of the cold war, they are now getting, wealth.

I agree with your skepticism about various quick fixes from science like sequestration. When president Bush correctly identified the US as having an addiction to oil, his solution reminded me of a typical response from a substance abuser, and, as a physician, I work with many of them.

The simple answer for an alchoholic is to stop drinking. The answer for an oil addict is to decrease fuel consumption. But the answer we were given was that the tooth fairy was coming- fuel cells, hydrogen powered car, photo voltaics- the scientists would save us from our indulgences.

Meanwhile, there are perfectly decent, safe, vehicles, on our roads that can get 60-70 mpg and the technology exists in hand that could get 100 mpg. 

Yet, since the 1970s this country has failed to make any progress whatsoever on fuel efficiency standards and now we are paying the piper, not to mention Hugo and Vladimir. 

A coalition of auto state UAW Democrats and laissez faire Republicans, have thwarted all efforts to reduce gas consumption. Now we are minimally increasing standards, late and little.

Besides, being a government imperative, I see it as an individual imperative. I watch TV ads that implies that what is important to Americans is the adrenaline rush of going 0 to 60 in 20 seconds, or driving a big Escalade that could carry half a circus. 

When I grew up, back in the paleolithic, we were an upper middle class family with four kids, and yet our house was 1600 sq ft. We had one tv, one car, and so did everybody else.

To me there is a spiritual dimension to all this. We pay for our indulgences. If we live wastefully and demand increasingly more and more material goods then we will squander our cpital if not our souls.

Or to put it in a familiar context:

Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:
But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mr. Laib:</p>
<p>Thank you for a thoughtful piece. I think there were excellent points made, although my conclusions might differ from yours.</p>
<p>The current energy situation the US finds itself in, should not, but has, unfortunately, been framed as a debate on global warming.</p>
<p>The reality is that the economic and geopolitical consequences of the US increasing dependence on foreign oil is the 1000 pound gorrila in our kid&#039;s playroom. </p>
<p>The wealth of this country is being taken from us and divvied up amongst the countries of Putin, Ahmadeenijad, Hugo Chavez, the Saudi Arabian Royal Family, and the Emirates. </p>
<p>Besides throwing us into recession, we are supporting, some of the worst despots in the world who are now flush with American cash. </p>
<p>As just one example of how that has played out diplomatically,  is the fact that for the first time in many years  there are at least four South American countries now in the Castro camp. All of them supported by Mr. Chavez with oil wealth largely eminating from the US. Iran likewise. And what the soviets were unable to achieve in 70 years of the cold war, they are now getting, wealth.</p>
<p>I agree with your skepticism about various quick fixes from science like sequestration. When president Bush correctly identified the US as having an addiction to oil, his solution reminded me of a typical response from a substance abuser, and, as a physician, I work with many of them.</p>
<p>The simple answer for an alchoholic is to stop drinking. The answer for an oil addict is to decrease fuel consumption. But the answer we were given was that the tooth fairy was coming- fuel cells, hydrogen powered car, photo voltaics- the scientists would save us from our indulgences.</p>
<p>Meanwhile, there are perfectly decent, safe, vehicles, on our roads that can get 60-70 mpg and the technology exists in hand that could get 100 mpg. </p>
<p>Yet, since the 1970s this country has failed to make any progress whatsoever on fuel efficiency standards and now we are paying the piper, not to mention Hugo and Vladimir. </p>
<p>A coalition of auto state UAW Democrats and laissez faire Republicans, have thwarted all efforts to reduce gas consumption. Now we are minimally increasing standards, late and little.</p>
<p>Besides, being a government imperative, I see it as an individual imperative. I watch TV ads that implies that what is important to Americans is the adrenaline rush of going 0 to 60 in 20 seconds, or driving a big Escalade that could carry half a circus. </p>
<p>When I grew up, back in the paleolithic, we were an upper middle class family with four kids, and yet our house was 1600 sq ft. We had one tv, one car, and so did everybody else.</p>
<p>To me there is a spiritual dimension to all this. We pay for our indulgences. If we live wastefully and demand increasingly more and more material goods then we will squander our cpital if not our souls.</p>
<p>Or to put it in a familiar context:</p>
<p>Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:<br />
But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:<br />
For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.</p>
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