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	<title>Comments on: Fitna Isn’t Anti-Muslim</title>
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	<link>http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2008/04/08/fitna-isn%e2%80%99t-anti-muslim/</link>
	<description>Conservative and Libertarian Intellectual Philosophy and Politics</description>
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		<title>By: Phillip Ellis Jackson</title>
		<link>http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2008/04/08/fitna-isn%e2%80%99t-anti-muslim/comment-page-1/#comment-71780</link>
		<dc:creator>Phillip Ellis Jackson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Apr 2008 14:49:20 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I solved this problem a few months ago by converting to Islam.  Now, by definition, anything I say about any subject (including Islam, as the logic goes)cannot be criticized.

Phillip Bin-Ellis Jackson.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I solved this problem a few months ago by converting to Islam.  Now, by definition, anything I say about any subject (including Islam, as the logic goes)cannot be criticized.</p>
<p>Phillip Bin-Ellis Jackson.</p>
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		<title>By: AMAI</title>
		<link>http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2008/04/08/fitna-isn%e2%80%99t-anti-muslim/comment-page-1/#comment-71775</link>
		<dc:creator>AMAI</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Apr 2008 03:38:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2008/04/08/fitna-isn%e2%80%99t-anti-muslim/#comment-71775</guid>
		<description>Pat Skurka said, &quot;Cartoons and movies insulting Islam or the Prophet Mohammed don’t help, they only present a simple message of fear that clearly states: &#039;I’m weak, kill me.&#039;&quot;

I disagree. Cartoons &amp; movies are a way of dealing with the insanity. They are seen as provocative because they&#039;re perceived as being ridiculing and denigrating. 

Then again, some of us think that philosophies (including religions) that advocate violence ought to be ridiculed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pat Skurka said, &#034;Cartoons and movies insulting Islam or the Prophet Mohammed don’t help, they only present a simple message of fear that clearly states: &#039;I’m weak, kill me.&#039;&#034;</p>
<p>I disagree. Cartoons &amp; movies are a way of dealing with the insanity. They are seen as provocative because they&#039;re perceived as being ridiculing and denigrating. </p>
<p>Then again, some of us think that philosophies (including religions) that advocate violence ought to be ridiculed.</p>
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		<title>By: KevinB</title>
		<link>http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2008/04/08/fitna-isn%e2%80%99t-anti-muslim/comment-page-1/#comment-71768</link>
		<dc:creator>KevinB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Apr 2008 17:10:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2008/04/08/fitna-isn%e2%80%99t-anti-muslim/#comment-71768</guid>
		<description>One of the main arguments I always hear is &quot;The percentage of radical Muslims is only 10-15%&quot;.  In a religion of 1.2 billion 10-15% comes out to 120-180 million people.  My 8 years in the Army took me to 7 different Islamic countries and the 10-15% is a conservative guess.  How people can casually make comments defending radicals shows their lack of understanding of the world outside the comforts of a free nation.  Having said that, if &quot;moderates&quot; really were against what the radical wing said and did they would be more vocal, seeing how they have an 800+ million person advantage.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One of the main arguments I always hear is &#034;The percentage of radical Muslims is only 10-15%&#034;.  In a religion of 1.2 billion 10-15% comes out to 120-180 million people.  My 8 years in the Army took me to 7 different Islamic countries and the 10-15% is a conservative guess.  How people can casually make comments defending radicals shows their lack of understanding of the world outside the comforts of a free nation.  Having said that, if &#034;moderates&#034; really were against what the radical wing said and did they would be more vocal, seeing how they have an 800+ million person advantage.</p>
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		<title>By: nick adams</title>
		<link>http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2008/04/08/fitna-isn%e2%80%99t-anti-muslim/comment-page-1/#comment-71763</link>
		<dc:creator>nick adams</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Apr 2008 14:07:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2008/04/08/fitna-isn%e2%80%99t-anti-muslim/#comment-71763</guid>
		<description>Leigh,
It&#039;s great to know their are political/religious wranglings in Islamic states (who would have guessed). But have you got something from anyone who has declared that the Muslims slaughtering innocent people in the name of Allah are actually breaking Allah&#039;s law? Has anyone issued Fatwas against them? Called for  justice to be done in the name of Allah?

Where does a Muslim&#039;s heart lie? 

Question for any Muslim: Is Osama Bin Laden going to Hell or do you suspect he will be rewarded in Heaven with whatever the going number of virgins is these days?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Leigh,<br />
It&#039;s great to know their are political/religious wranglings in Islamic states (who would have guessed). But have you got something from anyone who has declared that the Muslims slaughtering innocent people in the name of Allah are actually breaking Allah&#039;s law? Has anyone issued Fatwas against them? Called for  justice to be done in the name of Allah?</p>
<p>Where does a Muslim&#039;s heart lie? </p>
<p>Question for any Muslim: Is Osama Bin Laden going to Hell or do you suspect he will be rewarded in Heaven with whatever the going number of virgins is these days?</p>
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		<title>By: Leigh</title>
		<link>http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2008/04/08/fitna-isn%e2%80%99t-anti-muslim/comment-page-1/#comment-71762</link>
		<dc:creator>Leigh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Apr 2008 07:37:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2008/04/08/fitna-isn%e2%80%99t-anti-muslim/#comment-71762</guid>
		<description>Comment 14. Cite examples?

The Jakarta Post frequently publishes articles from Islamic scholars that challenge interpretations of the Quran (usually the challenged interpretations are those of the Saudi sponsored scholars). I mention this one because it is in English and easily accessable.

Strangely enough, one of the places where you can find the most open criticism is in Iran. The most vocal ones frequently find themselves under housearrest or worse. One of the most discussed is the role of the ulama within a state - a discussion predominantly within Shia Iran rather than the Sunni neighbours. A proponent outside of Iran can be found in Ayatollah Sistani in Iraq. They belive that the Ulama should act as guides, and not have direct control of the state.

Numerous other criticisms exist. It is important to note that they are cricitisms of interpretations of the Quran and Hadith - not criticisms of the Quran.

As to clergy within Islam, there is none. Distinction between laypeople and scholars is based on recognition - especially within Shia teachings. It is based on education and knowledge of the Quran, Hadith and religous jurisprudence. 

In some areas, the state tightly controls those who have access to the wider public - commonly those who issue the call to prayer and acts as the prayer leaders (Egypt and Saudi Arabia are rather notorious for this). Their survival is dependent on appearing legitimate by using religious justification (classic example being the ties between the Saudi rulers and Wahabism).

Many scholars, in order to gain recognition, follow a populist line - many are no better or worse than a normal politician.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Comment 14. Cite examples?</p>
<p>The Jakarta Post frequently publishes articles from Islamic scholars that challenge interpretations of the Quran (usually the challenged interpretations are those of the Saudi sponsored scholars). I mention this one because it is in English and easily accessable.</p>
<p>Strangely enough, one of the places where you can find the most open criticism is in Iran. The most vocal ones frequently find themselves under housearrest or worse. One of the most discussed is the role of the ulama within a state &#8211; a discussion predominantly within Shia Iran rather than the Sunni neighbours. A proponent outside of Iran can be found in Ayatollah Sistani in Iraq. They belive that the Ulama should act as guides, and not have direct control of the state.</p>
<p>Numerous other criticisms exist. It is important to note that they are cricitisms of interpretations of the Quran and Hadith &#8211; not criticisms of the Quran.</p>
<p>As to clergy within Islam, there is none. Distinction between laypeople and scholars is based on recognition &#8211; especially within Shia teachings. It is based on education and knowledge of the Quran, Hadith and religous jurisprudence. </p>
<p>In some areas, the state tightly controls those who have access to the wider public &#8211; commonly those who issue the call to prayer and acts as the prayer leaders (Egypt and Saudi Arabia are rather notorious for this). Their survival is dependent on appearing legitimate by using religious justification (classic example being the ties between the Saudi rulers and Wahabism).</p>
<p>Many scholars, in order to gain recognition, follow a populist line &#8211; many are no better or worse than a normal politician.</p>
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		<title>By: Patrick Mulligan</title>
		<link>http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2008/04/08/fitna-isn%e2%80%99t-anti-muslim/comment-page-1/#comment-71758</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrick Mulligan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Apr 2008 14:32:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2008/04/08/fitna-isn%e2%80%99t-anti-muslim/#comment-71758</guid>
		<description>&quot;Criticism happens all the time within Muslim states (note I did not say Islamic).

Just because you are not aware of it, or that the Western media do not report, does not mean it is not happening.

Also, there is no such thing as a high-ranking cleric (except perhaps Shia Iran with numerous titles). There is no clergy in Islam. It is not and cannot be compared to the Christian idea of clergy.&quot;

Cite an example. While you&#039;re at it, see if you can turn up a serious critique of Marxist economic theory from Stalinist Russia. If criticism were happening in Islamic (notice how I said &quot;Islamic&quot;) states &quot;all the time&quot;, then it shouldn&#039;t be cause for murder, rioting, looting and pillaging when satiric cartoons are published, or when external examinations of the religion are made available to the public. Protesting or questioning the content of those works would be perhaps understandable. Issuing global bounties for the murder of the creators of the works and destroying the property of completely unrelated people is an odd choice of response for a &quot;religion of peace&quot;. I didn&#039;t see any abortion clinic bombers or Crusaders burning cars outside the theaters when The Last Temptation of Christ, or The Da Vinci Code first debuted. And Andres Serrano certainly doesn&#039;t live in hiding, requiring private security personnel to comfortably walk the streets.

&quot;Islamic&quot; means &quot;of or relating to Islam&quot;. As in, &quot;an Islamic celebration&quot;. To call a state &quot;Islamic&quot; is not grammatically incorrect. Adherents of Islam are called &quot;Muslims&quot;. A state is not an individual, and consequently cannot be an adherent of anything. It would be grammatically improper to call a state &quot;Muslim&quot;.

There are clergy in Islam. Without such, there would be no distinction between laypeople and experts of the faith, and no teachers or keepers of the faith. There are various titles in the various traditions of Islam for clergy members. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_religious_leaders</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#034;Criticism happens all the time within Muslim states (note I did not say Islamic).</p>
<p>Just because you are not aware of it, or that the Western media do not report, does not mean it is not happening.</p>
<p>Also, there is no such thing as a high-ranking cleric (except perhaps Shia Iran with numerous titles). There is no clergy in Islam. It is not and cannot be compared to the Christian idea of clergy.&#034;</p>
<p>Cite an example. While you&#039;re at it, see if you can turn up a serious critique of Marxist economic theory from Stalinist Russia. If criticism were happening in Islamic (notice how I said &#034;Islamic&#034;) states &#034;all the time&#034;, then it shouldn&#039;t be cause for murder, rioting, looting and pillaging when satiric cartoons are published, or when external examinations of the religion are made available to the public. Protesting or questioning the content of those works would be perhaps understandable. Issuing global bounties for the murder of the creators of the works and destroying the property of completely unrelated people is an odd choice of response for a &#034;religion of peace&#034;. I didn&#039;t see any abortion clinic bombers or Crusaders burning cars outside the theaters when The Last Temptation of Christ, or The Da Vinci Code first debuted. And Andres Serrano certainly doesn&#039;t live in hiding, requiring private security personnel to comfortably walk the streets.</p>
<p>&#034;Islamic&#034; means &#034;of or relating to Islam&#034;. As in, &#034;an Islamic celebration&#034;. To call a state &#034;Islamic&#034; is not grammatically incorrect. Adherents of Islam are called &#034;Muslims&#034;. A state is not an individual, and consequently cannot be an adherent of anything. It would be grammatically improper to call a state &#034;Muslim&#034;.</p>
<p>There are clergy in Islam. Without such, there would be no distinction between laypeople and experts of the faith, and no teachers or keepers of the faith. There are various titles in the various traditions of Islam for clergy members. See: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_religious_leaders" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_religious_leaders</a></p>
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		<title>By: nick adams</title>
		<link>http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2008/04/08/fitna-isn%e2%80%99t-anti-muslim/comment-page-1/#comment-71757</link>
		<dc:creator>nick adams</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Apr 2008 13:39:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2008/04/08/fitna-isn%e2%80%99t-anti-muslim/#comment-71757</guid>
		<description>Leigh,

A cleric of import to great numbers of Muslims, one with thousands of followers and the power to reach outside faithful via media, would be a high-ranking cleric, as compared to those with few followers and no real impact on Muslims outside his local sphere. One can rank a cleric as easily as one can rank the top restaurants.

I don&#039;t live in a cave. If you know of a public condemnation of terrorism from clerics of note, complete with death sentences issued against them in the name of Allah, please point me to it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Leigh,</p>
<p>A cleric of import to great numbers of Muslims, one with thousands of followers and the power to reach outside faithful via media, would be a high-ranking cleric, as compared to those with few followers and no real impact on Muslims outside his local sphere. One can rank a cleric as easily as one can rank the top restaurants.</p>
<p>I don&#039;t live in a cave. If you know of a public condemnation of terrorism from clerics of note, complete with death sentences issued against them in the name of Allah, please point me to it.</p>
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		<title>By: Leigh</title>
		<link>http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2008/04/08/fitna-isn%e2%80%99t-anti-muslim/comment-page-1/#comment-71756</link>
		<dc:creator>Leigh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Apr 2008 08:20:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2008/04/08/fitna-isn%e2%80%99t-anti-muslim/#comment-71756</guid>
		<description>To comment 11.

Criticism happens all the time within Muslim states (note I did not say Islamic).

Just because you are not aware of it, or that the Western media do not report, does not mean it is not happening.

Also, there is no such thing as a high-ranking cleric (except perhaps Shia Iran with numerous titles). There is no clergy in Islam. It is not and cannot be compared to the Christian idea of clergy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To comment 11.</p>
<p>Criticism happens all the time within Muslim states (note I did not say Islamic).</p>
<p>Just because you are not aware of it, or that the Western media do not report, does not mean it is not happening.</p>
<p>Also, there is no such thing as a high-ranking cleric (except perhaps Shia Iran with numerous titles). There is no clergy in Islam. It is not and cannot be compared to the Christian idea of clergy.</p>
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		<title>By: nick adams</title>
		<link>http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2008/04/08/fitna-isn%e2%80%99t-anti-muslim/comment-page-1/#comment-71754</link>
		<dc:creator>nick adams</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Apr 2008 00:50:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2008/04/08/fitna-isn%e2%80%99t-anti-muslim/#comment-71754</guid>
		<description>Mr. Skurka is right. We have no business &quot;provoking&quot; people of the Islamic faith. 

Even if Islam is a political/religious system of governance and laws interpreted by its most respected and faithful elders as the justification for mass murder and subjugation of entire societies,what place is it of any infidel to be provocative?

Seriously, Mr. Skurka, until those within Islam dare identify and &quot;provoke&quot; (those of their faith who deserve it) on any kind of scale, it will be up to cartoonists and other westerners to do it for them.

If moderate and peaceful Muslims don&#039;t like the job the fed-up western world is doing, they are free to step in and take a switch to their own naughty children. If they feel westerners are painting all Muslims with the same brush, they can easily make it clear where the sympathies of &quot;most&quot; Muslims lie (afterall, if they really are &quot;most,&quot; then they have all the power they need. How about:

Just once, I would like to hear a high-ranking and respected Muslim cleric issue a Fatwa calling for the deaths of the terrorists whom moderate/most Muslims claim are &quot;hijacking&quot; their religion.

If terrorists truly are evil men perverting the meaning of Islam, what is holding Muslims up from openly and officially declaring that Bin Laden and his brothers are breaking Allah&#039;s laws and are doomed to burn in Hell after being brought to justice under Sharia law on earth? 

What is stopping them from reminding every Muslim of their obligation to exercise the justice Allah demands for those who break his laws?

Islam is either the peaceful faith of millions of Muslims who desire to live and let live, or it is as it is described in the Koran - the only true religion and one that must be accepted as law by all mankind, by force if need be. 

I&#039;d ask which is it, moderate/most Muslims? But as the Koran permits lying to non-believers like me, how do I know if I&#039;m getting a truthful answer?

The answer is, I don&#039;t. But some mighty actions by the mighty &quot;most&quot; and &quot;moderate&quot; Muslims to bring down and bring to justice, and send to Hell, the terrorist offenders of Allah&#039;s law would go a long way in convincing me they really are who they say they are.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mr. Skurka is right. We have no business &#034;provoking&#034; people of the Islamic faith. </p>
<p>Even if Islam is a political/religious system of governance and laws interpreted by its most respected and faithful elders as the justification for mass murder and subjugation of entire societies,what place is it of any infidel to be provocative?</p>
<p>Seriously, Mr. Skurka, until those within Islam dare identify and &#034;provoke&#034; (those of their faith who deserve it) on any kind of scale, it will be up to cartoonists and other westerners to do it for them.</p>
<p>If moderate and peaceful Muslims don&#039;t like the job the fed-up western world is doing, they are free to step in and take a switch to their own naughty children. If they feel westerners are painting all Muslims with the same brush, they can easily make it clear where the sympathies of &#034;most&#034; Muslims lie (afterall, if they really are &#034;most,&#034; then they have all the power they need. How about:</p>
<p>Just once, I would like to hear a high-ranking and respected Muslim cleric issue a Fatwa calling for the deaths of the terrorists whom moderate/most Muslims claim are &#034;hijacking&#034; their religion.</p>
<p>If terrorists truly are evil men perverting the meaning of Islam, what is holding Muslims up from openly and officially declaring that Bin Laden and his brothers are breaking Allah&#039;s laws and are doomed to burn in Hell after being brought to justice under Sharia law on earth? </p>
<p>What is stopping them from reminding every Muslim of their obligation to exercise the justice Allah demands for those who break his laws?</p>
<p>Islam is either the peaceful faith of millions of Muslims who desire to live and let live, or it is as it is described in the Koran &#8211; the only true religion and one that must be accepted as law by all mankind, by force if need be. </p>
<p>I&#039;d ask which is it, moderate/most Muslims? But as the Koran permits lying to non-believers like me, how do I know if I&#039;m getting a truthful answer?</p>
<p>The answer is, I don&#039;t. But some mighty actions by the mighty &#034;most&#034; and &#034;moderate&#034; Muslims to bring down and bring to justice, and send to Hell, the terrorist offenders of Allah&#039;s law would go a long way in convincing me they really are who they say they are.</p>
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		<title>By: Fitna and the Acceptable Bounds of Criticism &#171; .9 Repeating Decimal</title>
		<link>http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2008/04/08/fitna-isn%e2%80%99t-anti-muslim/comment-page-1/#comment-71753</link>
		<dc:creator>Fitna and the Acceptable Bounds of Criticism &#171; .9 Repeating Decimal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Apr 2008 00:14:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2008/04/08/fitna-isn%e2%80%99t-anti-muslim/#comment-71753</guid>
		<description>[...] Uncategorized pointnine 8:14 pm   And another interesting article. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Uncategorized pointnine 8:14 pm   And another interesting article. [...]</p>
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