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	<title>Comments on: Human Origins and a Side of Fries: Refuting a Popular Neo-Darwinian Position</title>
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	<link>http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2008/05/13/human-origins-and-a-side-of-fries-refuting-a-popular-neo-darwinian-position/</link>
	<description>Conservative and Libertarian Intellectual Philosophy and Politics</description>
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		<title>By: AMAI</title>
		<link>http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2008/05/13/human-origins-and-a-side-of-fries-refuting-a-popular-neo-darwinian-position/comment-page-1/#comment-72276</link>
		<dc:creator>AMAI</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 May 2008 02:32:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2008/05/13/human-origins-and-a-side-of-fries-refuting-a-popular-neo-darwinian-position/#comment-72276</guid>
		<description>&quot;Whatever standard of evidence NDs apply to their own theories they should also apply externally and consistently to other competing propositions and to the evidence as a whole.&quot;

What other competing propositions?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#034;Whatever standard of evidence NDs apply to their own theories they should also apply externally and consistently to other competing propositions and to the evidence as a whole.&#034;</p>
<p>What other competing propositions?</p>
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		<title>By: Shorter Brian C. Melton &#171; PowerUp</title>
		<link>http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2008/05/13/human-origins-and-a-side-of-fries-refuting-a-popular-neo-darwinian-position/comment-page-1/#comment-72183</link>
		<dc:creator>Shorter Brian C. Melton &#171; PowerUp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 May 2008 04:44:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2008/05/13/human-origins-and-a-side-of-fries-refuting-a-popular-neo-darwinian-position/#comment-72183</guid>
		<description>[...] Shorter Brian C.&#160;Melton  Human Origins and a Side of Fries: Refuting a Popular Neo-Darwinian Position [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Shorter Brian C.&nbsp;Melton  Human Origins and a Side of Fries: Refuting a Popular Neo-Darwinian Position [...]</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: squareONE explorations &#187; Blog Archive &#187; WHINING TAKES TIME</title>
		<link>http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2008/05/13/human-origins-and-a-side-of-fries-refuting-a-popular-neo-darwinian-position/comment-page-1/#comment-72166</link>
		<dc:creator>squareONE explorations &#187; Blog Archive &#187; WHINING TAKES TIME</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 May 2008 16:01:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2008/05/13/human-origins-and-a-side-of-fries-refuting-a-popular-neo-darwinian-position/#comment-72166</guid>
		<description>[...] Professor of History at Liberty University, writing at the web site Intellectual Conservative, Human Origins and a Side of Fries: Refuting a Popular Neo-Darwinian Position. [A] A prime example of this appeared in Expelled, when Dawkins expressed a willingness to accept [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Professor of History at Liberty University, writing at the web site Intellectual Conservative, Human Origins and a Side of Fries: Refuting a Popular Neo-Darwinian Position. [A] A prime example of this appeared in Expelled, when Dawkins expressed a willingness to accept [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Raymond Ingles</title>
		<link>http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2008/05/13/human-origins-and-a-side-of-fries-refuting-a-popular-neo-darwinian-position/comment-page-1/#comment-72164</link>
		<dc:creator>Raymond Ingles</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 May 2008 14:28:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2008/05/13/human-origins-and-a-side-of-fries-refuting-a-popular-neo-darwinian-position/#comment-72164</guid>
		<description>For some context about the Dawkins bit in Expelled, you could look at  this: http://richarddawkins.net/article,2394,Lying-for-Jesus,Richard-Dawkins

But this is a side issue, of course, like comparing Sam Harris - not a scientist, and not talking about evolution - with Richard Dawkins, a scientist who actually does study evolution.

The first problem is that &quot;the NDs&quot; &lt;i&gt;don&#039;t&lt;/i&gt; consider themselves to be the &quot;final arbiter[sic] of truth&quot;. They &lt;i&gt;are&lt;/i&gt; scientists, though, and do have some pretty strong opinions on what&#039;s &lt;i&gt;science&lt;/i&gt;. The main political controversy is over what&#039;s to be taught in science classes - and there can be debate over whether ID actually qualifies as science.

But maybe scientists really &lt;i&gt;do&lt;/i&gt; &quot;set such an artificially high standard that no amount of evidence for ID will ever be enough&quot;. The author &lt;i&gt;asserts&lt;/i&gt; this, however, and doesn&#039;t actually &lt;i&gt;support&lt;/i&gt; it. Consider the case of &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2008/04/18/evolution-101/#comment-71866&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Lynn Margulis&lt;/a&gt; who questions key parts of the &#039;Darwinian orthodoxy&#039;, but her latest book has a foreword by one of the key architects of the &#039;neo-Darwinian synthesis&#039;.
The author asks, &quot;How does experimental science prove or disprove a specific creation method for the universe, given that the laws that govern science only came into existence after the initial creation moment?&quot; That &lt;i&gt;might&lt;/i&gt; be a legitimate question - depending on how the terms used are defined - but it&#039;s &lt;i&gt;not&lt;/i&gt; a question for &quot;NDs&quot;, but for physicists and cosmologists. Biological evolution doesn&#039;t have any more to do with cosmology than baking or banking do.

ID doesn&#039;t make a lot of predictions, and to the extent that ID &lt;i&gt;has&lt;/i&gt; made predictions, they have simply not been borne out: http://pandasthumb.org/archives/2008/05/behe-vs-lamprey.html
Finding a structure that really &lt;i&gt;couldn&#039;t&lt;/i&gt; evolve would be a major problem for &quot;NDs&quot;, but none of the proposed examples have stood up to scrutiny. Finding living things with genomes that don&#039;t fit into a hierarchical, inheritance-based tree would be another major problem, but even weird creatures like the platypus fit: http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/05/the_platypus_genome.php

Philip Johnson, considered by some to be the &#039;father of intelligent design&#039;, understands this: &quot;I also don’t think that there is really a theory of intelligent design at the present time to propose as a comparable alternative to the Darwinian theory, which is, whatever errors it might contain, a fully worked out scheme. There is no intelligent design theory that’s comparable. Working out a positive theory is the job of the scientific people that we have affiliated with the movement. Some of them are quite convinced that it’s doable, but that’s for them to prove... No product is ready for competition in the educational world.&quot; (http://sciencereview.berkeley.edu/articles.php?issue=10&amp;article=evolution)

(As to transitional fossils - well, there are plenty: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section1.html#morphological_intermediates )</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For some context about the Dawkins bit in Expelled, you could look at  this: <a href="http://richarddawkins.net/article,2394,Lying-for-Jesus,Richard-Dawkins" rel="nofollow">http://richarddawkins.net/article,2394,Lying-for-Jesus,Richard-Dawkins</a></p>
<p>But this is a side issue, of course, like comparing Sam Harris &#8211; not a scientist, and not talking about evolution &#8211; with Richard Dawkins, a scientist who actually does study evolution.</p>
<p>The first problem is that &#034;the NDs&#034; <i>don&#039;t</i> consider themselves to be the &#034;final arbiter[sic] of truth&#034;. They <i>are</i> scientists, though, and do have some pretty strong opinions on what&#039;s <i>science</i>. The main political controversy is over what&#039;s to be taught in science classes &#8211; and there can be debate over whether ID actually qualifies as science.</p>
<p>But maybe scientists really <i>do</i> &#034;set such an artificially high standard that no amount of evidence for ID will ever be enough&#034;. The author <i>asserts</i> this, however, and doesn&#039;t actually <i>support</i> it. Consider the case of <a href="http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2008/04/18/evolution-101/#comment-71866" rel="nofollow">Lynn Margulis</a> who questions key parts of the &#039;Darwinian orthodoxy&#039;, but her latest book has a foreword by one of the key architects of the &#039;neo-Darwinian synthesis&#039;.<br />
The author asks, &#034;How does experimental science prove or disprove a specific creation method for the universe, given that the laws that govern science only came into existence after the initial creation moment?&#034; That <i>might</i> be a legitimate question &#8211; depending on how the terms used are defined &#8211; but it&#039;s <i>not</i> a question for &#034;NDs&#034;, but for physicists and cosmologists. Biological evolution doesn&#039;t have any more to do with cosmology than baking or banking do.</p>
<p>ID doesn&#039;t make a lot of predictions, and to the extent that ID <i>has</i> made predictions, they have simply not been borne out: <a href="http://pandasthumb.org/archives/2008/05/behe-vs-lamprey.html" rel="nofollow">http://pandasthumb.org/archives/2008/05/behe-vs-lamprey.html</a><br />
Finding a structure that really <i>couldn&#039;t</i> evolve would be a major problem for &#034;NDs&#034;, but none of the proposed examples have stood up to scrutiny. Finding living things with genomes that don&#039;t fit into a hierarchical, inheritance-based tree would be another major problem, but even weird creatures like the platypus fit: <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/05/the_platypus_genome.php" rel="nofollow">http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/05/the_platypus_genome.php</a></p>
<p>Philip Johnson, considered by some to be the &#039;father of intelligent design&#039;, understands this: &#034;I also don’t think that there is really a theory of intelligent design at the present time to propose as a comparable alternative to the Darwinian theory, which is, whatever errors it might contain, a fully worked out scheme. There is no intelligent design theory that’s comparable. Working out a positive theory is the job of the scientific people that we have affiliated with the movement. Some of them are quite convinced that it’s doable, but that’s for them to prove&#8230; No product is ready for competition in the educational world.&#034; (<a href="http://sciencereview.berkeley.edu/articles.php?issue=10&amp;article=evolution" rel="nofollow">http://sciencereview.berkeley.edu/articles.php?issue=10&amp;article=evolution</a>)</p>
<p>(As to transitional fossils &#8211; well, there are plenty: <a href="http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section1.html#morphological_intermediates" rel="nofollow">http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section1.html#morphological_intermediates</a> )</p>
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