I am glad to learn that you don’t categorize everybody Left of Center in one fellswoop and on those terms I could drop the argument, except that you claim that I am misquoting you.

Post #6 – “Leftists believe that conservatives are evil. They actively want to hurt people. They are greedy, hateflul, and oppressive. ”

Post #11 ” Leftists are emotion-based and there is no reasoning with emotional people. To a leftist, conservatives are not simply people with a differing opinion.”

” They don’t debate. They shout down, they install speech codes, they call people names. They entertain no disent, no diversity of opinion, no other point of view”.

I don’t see any modifiers but broad brush generalities. I do think conservatives are simply “people with a differing opinion” many of which I am in agreement with. My whole point is that you don’t offer the same level of consideration.

Now I do not consider myself a Leftist, but by your definition of everybody from Lieberman Left, I might well be, so it is hard not to take some of your generalities personally.

I am more than willing to read posts. Phillip posted an inciteful piece and we had a thoughtful discussion as we have had before on this blog.

I think Palin is an interesting phenomonon and wanted to offer a different perspective. I am beginning to think that she will carry the day for the GOP, but I think her appeal is largely personal, kind of like Obama’s early appeal, and the larger trends in the body politic toward the left since 2004 will not end that quickly.

If McCain wins, given a Democratic Congress, and Scott at http://www.electionprojection.com is predicting a Blue Senate pickup of 6, and considering the nature of the man, he will have a more centrist Schwarzneggerian administration and it would be unusual that Palin would run a contrasting viewpoint.

If Obama wins, then we will have a very left leaning four years, and if the Dems screw things up, that might very well set the course for Palin in 2012. I do think McCain now has the edge. Election projection still has Obama by 26 EVs but it is all trending Red and there is some indication Michigan might flip. Obama seems stuck in quicksand, and events are showing that he is not up to the task. Now, if McCain wins, will Hillary retry in 2012.

The thing about debate and dialogue is that is presumes that both parties are engaging in thoughtful, honest, and open exchange. You are not. Since you either refuse to understand or you are deliberately misrepresenting what I am saying, I leave you to your fantasies.

Try again sometime when you are actually willing to read peoples’ posts and respond to them. Outta here.

Forgive me my flailings.

“There is a group of people out there who have the characteristics I describe …..”

****This was your contention that all Left of Center was emotional based. Show me your data to make such broad generalities.

” I am rather familiar with Baucus. He is lock step with the Leftists in Congress..”

****The National Journal Composite Conservative score for 2007 for Baucus is 42%. This compares with 4% for Obama, 22% for Biden, 57% for McCain and 91% for Kyl.

http://www.vote-smart.org/issue_rating_detail.php?r_id=3663

” God is judge. Do you presume to know How He will judge me”

Absolutely not. You may be a very decent guy. I do not make any presumptions on your character based on your politics. You were the one that implicated all Left of center as

“…..greedy, hateful, and oppressive”

I do not think that level of generality is equivalent to my non personal complaints about one person, Limbaugh. I don’t think conservatives are any less decent than anybody else and stated that plainly along with my respect for such people as Buckley and Fred Thompson who press their points with conviction but do not rely upon attacking the character of those that disagree with them.

Keep flailing, you’ll hit something, I guess.

There is a group of people out there who have the characteristics I describe, which is different than saying that there is a group of people (or an individual) who I am going to unfairly paint with these characteristics. See the difference?

I am rather familiar with Baucus. He is lock-step with the Leftists in Congress. I really don’t care how you think you compare to him or others in or out of government, because this isn’t about you (or YOUR personal prejudices).

St. Peter doesn’t judge anyone. God is judge. Do you presume to know how He will judge me? You are certain the criteria is respect for my fellow man? And I have disrespected my fellow man?

You excuse your dishonorable treatment (ad hominem) of an individual, Rush Limbaugh, by contrasting him with my general characterization of a group of identifiable people. You passed judgment that your crime is somehow lesser than mine based on the arbitrary criteria of sheer numbers, I suppose.

What a curious value system you have.

The original manifestation of Ad-Hominem is from the ancient Roman, in which it was said about legal cases, “if you have no case, abuse the plaintiff.”

I don’t do TV so missed out on MSNBC and don’t know what US magazine is. What does MAD magazine think about it. I am kind of a Luddite with a computer.

You are probably correct on the inevitable personalization of elections. I would have liked to see something like a Biden-Thompson race.

I do give the edge to McCain on the election and Palin will probably prove a good choice politically, although I would like to hear her debate the issues rather than who said what about who or what her cultural personna is. The same could be said about Obama.

I heard McCrory debate Perdue for NC Govenor and thought the former was more intelligent and logical and could vote for the GOP for that in my home state.

Election projection http://www.electionprojection.com my old political blog and one of the better prediction sites just had the NC senatorial swing towards Hagen over Dole from weak GOP hold to weak Dem gain. Hagen is running as a conservative Democrat. NC has not particularly trended Dem lately, but like Virginia which strongly has, it has gotten a lot of Northern migration.

Ad Hominem is

“The person presenting an argument is attacked instead of the argument itself.”

I think group is allowably substitutable for person.

What I was alluding to was your claim that leftists are “emotion based” and that

“…. They are greedy, hateful and oppressive…..
So there is no courteous, respectful dialogue, because it’s good vs. evil. Tolerance vs. bigotry. Peace vs. hate.”

If Ad Hominem doesn’t fit that bill, fine, I withdraw it.

Your characterization remains a generalization, speculative, and unsupported other than by your personal prejudices.

It is like if I would say that all Conservatives are sexually repressed and stupid, without any evidence or basis, just because it fits my stereotype. Show me your data. Do you not have any friends or relatives who disagree with you politically, maybe even voted for Baucus. Are they all “greedy, hateful and oppressive”.

You first did not include JFK liberals as Left, but then seemed to include Baucus and Lieberman, two centrist Democrats, so I don’t mean to split hairs or hassle you, but I just am trying to figure out which group I am defending.

When we get to heaven, St. Peter, will not judge you by whether you supported the correct side, but on how you treated and respected your fellow man, particularly those that might have disagreed with you.

I carefully defined for you who I am talking about. I gave examples. I listed characteristics. I told you who I was not talking about. Yet you are still not clear? Your response appears to be, “not all extreme leftists are extreme.”

“Ad Hominem” means “to the man.” Which specific person have I leveled a personal attack against by asserting that the extreme left is emotion-based?

The thing is, I gave you my definitions. They aren’t inadequate or unclear, you just don’t like them.

Regardingh Limbaugh, I don’t think your characterization is accurate, but reasonable people can disagree about what is a malevolent fallacy, and what is “illustrating absurdity by being absurd” as Rush characterizes this.

As for the MSM and smears, I guess it depends on whether you consider MSNBC and US magazine to be mainstream for a couple of direct examples, and whether ABC and others “reporting” the rumors (something they refused to do with Edwards until Edwards admitted his affair, for example), is just a sleazy way of smearing Palin indirectly.

It would indeed be great if the election was about issues, not personalities and other distractions. Unfortunately, that’s not how the system typically works. The people have no attention span for listening to dry, “boring” facts, so the only way a candidate gets any traction is to personalize the debate. It’s always been this way, and I don’t expect it to change anytime soon.

Phil

“To your point that “you pretty much define everybody Left of Lieberman as Leftists who are ‘emotion-based’. This is a classic Ad Hominem argument” — twice now you’ve disparaged Rush Limbaugh in the same way.”

**** I will adopt your *** protocol, works well. My disagreement with my friend from Montana is not that he disparages certain people on the Left as I might have done re Rush, but that he generalizes the whole left of center in one fell swoop to an army of nincompoops at best.

I admire people like Fred Thompson, WJ Buckley, George Will. I don’t characterize and psychoanalyze the entire universe of right of center in some simple phrase like “emotion based” because I think it is a carricature.
Right of center are human beings not a different species and there are different viewpoints and different personalities.

” I have the opportunity to listen to Rush almost every day, and while he can be brutally on-target in his satire (“femanazis”, for example, to describe radical feminists — not all feminists), he doesn’t lower himself to the level of the Left wing nutjobs who’ve been working overtime to smear Sarah Palin with made-up charges. [I can’t speak to Hannity….”

*****I do listen to AM talk radio a fair amount if there isn’t anything on NPR. You need to define which Left Wing Nutjobs. I don’t doubt that some LWNJs who are worse than Rush, but I do think he uses numerous argumentative fallacies to smear an entire population of people, never considers a contrary viewpoint, and harbors malevolent intent towards everybody he disagrees with. Obviously, I am a bit more sensitive to Rush than you on this, nuh?. My guess is Michael Moore does not make you feel enthused, either, but I put the two on about the same level of lack of objectivity, fallacious argument and over generalization.

With Hannity and Limbaugh too, what they typically do is pick some objectionable straw dog, some overly politically correct liberal episode, build up a rant, and then generalize to all Democrats, liberals, etc.

“The only truly universal standard I see is whether what is being said is factually correct or not. I can be criticized for calling someone an “idiot” who said 9/11 was an inside job, rather than saying that person ….”

****agree, or the holocaust deniers. But within the beliefs of 80% of Americans I think we can argue with respect and consideration.

“Context is everything.”

Context is important. WJB did not typically call people maggots. That is the language of the interahamwe who dubbed the Tutsi “cockroaches” before the Rwandan genocide.

I have failed to see any major Palin smear in the US mainstream media. I don’t do TV- NYT, AP, NPR, local conservative newspaper. Blogs can be natural havens for glass house stone throwers. I have seen some nasty LW blogs and nasty RW blogs and why go there.

BBC was pretty unfiar with Palin. Don’t know that it reached smear, but hey made a big deal about the daughters pregnancy, and that is irrelevant and should be off limits.

I think that we both agree that this election should be about the issues and would like to hear a spirited debate on that rather than peoples families.

This will be my nightcap. I need to get in a few Sudokus before the wife snoozes off.

Say a prayer for the people in Haiti, Bahamas, Cuba. It looks like Ike might be heading for about Corpus Christi Texas by the weekend.