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	<title>Comments on: When Alternate Theories Don’t Make For A Good Curriculum</title>
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	<link>http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2008/10/08/when-alternate-theories-don%e2%80%99t-make-for-a-good-curriculum/</link>
	<description>Conservative and Libertarian Intellectual Philosophy and Politics</description>
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		<title>By: Last Angry Man</title>
		<link>http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2008/10/08/when-alternate-theories-don%e2%80%99t-make-for-a-good-curriculum/comment-page-4/#comment-74393</link>
		<dc:creator>Last Angry Man</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Oct 2008 12:25:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2008/10/08/when-alternate-theories-don%e2%80%99t-make-for-a-good-curriculum/#comment-74393</guid>
		<description>On reflection, you go ahead and discuss this with the others; I will bow out.  Lest all you and I do is go in circles about the scientific method and who proves what to whom.

Good day to you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On reflection, you go ahead and discuss this with the others; I will bow out.  Lest all you and I do is go in circles about the scientific method and who proves what to whom.</p>
<p>Good day to you.</p>
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		<title>By: Last Angry Man</title>
		<link>http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2008/10/08/when-alternate-theories-don%e2%80%99t-make-for-a-good-curriculum/comment-page-4/#comment-74392</link>
		<dc:creator>Last Angry Man</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Oct 2008 12:16:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2008/10/08/when-alternate-theories-don%e2%80%99t-make-for-a-good-curriculum/#comment-74392</guid>
		<description>Simply that&#039;s wrong.  Evolution is widely accepted; ID is not.  When you make claims that Evolution is wrong and ID is, in fact, correct, then the onus is on you to prove you are correct.  That is, in fact, how science works.  Perhaps later, should some of your views be accepted, then people will take the next step, e.g. attempt to falsify your hypothesis&#039;, but for now you really aren&#039;t there yet.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Simply that&#8217;s wrong.  Evolution is widely accepted; ID is not.  When you make claims that Evolution is wrong and ID is, in fact, correct, then the onus is on you to prove you are correct.  That is, in fact, how science works.  Perhaps later, should some of your views be accepted, then people will take the next step, e.g. attempt to falsify your hypothesis&#8217;, but for now you really aren&#8217;t there yet.</p>
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		<title>By: Gary Gaulin</title>
		<link>http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2008/10/08/when-alternate-theories-don%e2%80%99t-make-for-a-good-curriculum/comment-page-4/#comment-74391</link>
		<dc:creator>Gary Gaulin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Oct 2008 11:46:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2008/10/08/when-alternate-theories-don%e2%80%99t-make-for-a-good-curriculum/#comment-74391</guid>
		<description>You made the claim that all I have been explaining is already well understood.  You are now obliged to explain it!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You made the claim that all I have been explaining is already well understood.  You are now obliged to explain it!</p>
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		<title>By: Last Angry Man</title>
		<link>http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2008/10/08/when-alternate-theories-don%e2%80%99t-make-for-a-good-curriculum/comment-page-4/#comment-74390</link>
		<dc:creator>Last Angry Man</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Oct 2008 11:14:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2008/10/08/when-alternate-theories-don%e2%80%99t-make-for-a-good-curriculum/#comment-74390</guid>
		<description>OK, over your &quot;Arrghh&quot; moment?

Explain to me how one can discuss a science without discussing the science?  You say &quot;things you know mixed with what you know for a fact is false...&quot;  In short, it appears you&#039;ve already made up your mind on this, and all the rest is merely verbiage leading nowhere.

Oh, something from a good science education as well: if you make a claim or claims such as you have, it is incumbent on you to prove you are correct, not demanding everyone else show you where you are wrong.

And so, that being said and done,in response to your last question, no Sir, why don&#039;t *you* do so.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK, over your &#8220;Arrghh&#8221; moment?</p>
<p>Explain to me how one can discuss a science without discussing the science?  You say &#8220;things you know mixed with what you know for a fact is false&#8230;&#8221;  In short, it appears you&#8217;ve already made up your mind on this, and all the rest is merely verbiage leading nowhere.</p>
<p>Oh, something from a good science education as well: if you make a claim or claims such as you have, it is incumbent on you to prove you are correct, not demanding everyone else show you where you are wrong.</p>
<p>And so, that being said and done,in response to your last question, no Sir, why don&#8217;t *you* do so.</p>
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		<title>By: Gary Gaulin</title>
		<link>http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2008/10/08/when-alternate-theories-don%e2%80%99t-make-for-a-good-curriculum/comment-page-4/#comment-74388</link>
		<dc:creator>Gary Gaulin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Oct 2008 01:36:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2008/10/08/when-alternate-theories-don%e2%80%99t-make-for-a-good-curriculum/#comment-74388</guid>
		<description>Uima, from my experience Creationists have it well enough defined as a concept but it can be hard for them to word scientifically.  That makes it easy to misunderstand what some are trying to say.  The real problem I see is that Evolution Theory cannot explain what we want to know about.  They don&#039;t know about the Harvard dust/clay experiment now in origins science and other things.  With none knowing what the missing science looks like there is no way for them to describe what is missing.  It&#039;s not so much they don&#039;t accept evolution it&#039;s that they see there having to be much more than that to our origins story.  And they got kicked around by the theory, have to expect they would tell academia to go shove it then try to find a better one.

And Last Angry Man, Arrrrrrggghhhhhhhhhh!  Your rambling on and on about things I already know mixed with what I know for a fact is false is going to make me crazy!!!  I have to wonder whether the straw blows out of you when it gets windy or you&#039;re just another victim of the half-baked science education that is still the national standard.

I&#039;m still waiting for a scientific response to the science I presented.  At least define your terms by explaining the origin of the phenomena scientists call &quot;intelligence&quot; and how the mechanism works.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Uima, from my experience Creationists have it well enough defined as a concept but it can be hard for them to word scientifically.  That makes it easy to misunderstand what some are trying to say.  The real problem I see is that Evolution Theory cannot explain what we want to know about.  They don&#8217;t know about the Harvard dust/clay experiment now in origins science and other things.  With none knowing what the missing science looks like there is no way for them to describe what is missing.  It&#8217;s not so much they don&#8217;t accept evolution it&#8217;s that they see there having to be much more than that to our origins story.  And they got kicked around by the theory, have to expect they would tell academia to go shove it then try to find a better one.</p>
<p>And Last Angry Man, Arrrrrrggghhhhhhhhhh!  Your rambling on and on about things I already know mixed with what I know for a fact is false is going to make me crazy!!!  I have to wonder whether the straw blows out of you when it gets windy or you&#8217;re just another victim of the half-baked science education that is still the national standard.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m still waiting for a scientific response to the science I presented.  At least define your terms by explaining the origin of the phenomena scientists call &#8220;intelligence&#8221; and how the mechanism works.</p>
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		<title>By: Uima</title>
		<link>http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2008/10/08/when-alternate-theories-don%e2%80%99t-make-for-a-good-curriculum/comment-page-4/#comment-74387</link>
		<dc:creator>Uima</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Oct 2008 22:56:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2008/10/08/when-alternate-theories-don%e2%80%99t-make-for-a-good-curriculum/#comment-74387</guid>
		<description>GG:  &quot;&quot;Macroevolution is a scale of analysis of evolution in separated gene pools.[1] Macroevolutionary studies focus on change that occurs at or above the level of species, in contrast with microevolution,[2] which refers to smaller evolutionary changes (typically described as changes in allele frequencies) within a species or population.&quot;&quot;

Yes, that&#039;s how scientists use the terms.  Microevolution is evolution within a gene pool, macroevolution is evolution in separated gene pools, which typically means at or above the species level.  I&#039;m well aware of that.  

What I&#039;m interested is the creationist usage, because they seem to think that one happens and the other doesn&#039;t, but since we know that they both happen as the scientists define them, then the creationists must mean something else.  But they never say exactly what.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>GG:  &#8220;&#8221;Macroevolution is a scale of analysis of evolution in separated gene pools.[1] Macroevolutionary studies focus on change that occurs at or above the level of species, in contrast with microevolution,[2] which refers to smaller evolutionary changes (typically described as changes in allele frequencies) within a species or population.&#8221;"</p>
<p>Yes, that&#8217;s how scientists use the terms.  Microevolution is evolution within a gene pool, macroevolution is evolution in separated gene pools, which typically means at or above the species level.  I&#8217;m well aware of that.  </p>
<p>What I&#8217;m interested is the creationist usage, because they seem to think that one happens and the other doesn&#8217;t, but since we know that they both happen as the scientists define them, then the creationists must mean something else.  But they never say exactly what.</p>
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		<title>By: Last Angry Man</title>
		<link>http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2008/10/08/when-alternate-theories-don%e2%80%99t-make-for-a-good-curriculum/comment-page-4/#comment-74386</link>
		<dc:creator>Last Angry Man</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Oct 2008 22:42:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2008/10/08/when-alternate-theories-don%e2%80%99t-make-for-a-good-curriculum/#comment-74386</guid>
		<description>Gary, Evolution doesn&#039;t suddenly occur, as in some vast change overnight; it&#039;s a slow and gradual process, punctuated with abrupt changes due to extreme stress.  That IS the record.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gary, Evolution doesn&#8217;t suddenly occur, as in some vast change overnight; it&#8217;s a slow and gradual process, punctuated with abrupt changes due to extreme stress.  That IS the record.</p>
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		<title>By: Gary Gaulin</title>
		<link>http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2008/10/08/when-alternate-theories-don%e2%80%99t-make-for-a-good-curriculum/comment-page-4/#comment-74385</link>
		<dc:creator>Gary Gaulin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Oct 2008 22:36:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2008/10/08/when-alternate-theories-don%e2%80%99t-make-for-a-good-curriculum/#comment-74385</guid>
		<description>From: Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences

&quot;When sleep or hide makes the difference in MACROEVOLUTION&quot;

http://www.pnas.org/content/105/35/E56.extract

From Wikipedia:

&quot;Macroevolution is a scale of analysis of evolution in separated gene pools.[1] Macroevolutionary studies focus on change that occurs at or above the level of species, in contrast with microevolution,[2] which refers to smaller evolutionary changes (typically described as changes in allele frequencies) within a species or population.&quot;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macroevolution</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>From: Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences</p>
<p>&#8220;When sleep or hide makes the difference in MACROEVOLUTION&#8221;</p>
<p><a href="http://www.pnas.org/content/105/35/E56.extract" rel="nofollow">http://www.pnas.org/content/105/35/E56.extract</a></p>
<p>From Wikipedia:</p>
<p>&#8220;Macroevolution is a scale of analysis of evolution in separated gene pools.[1] Macroevolutionary studies focus on change that occurs at or above the level of species, in contrast with microevolution,[2] which refers to smaller evolutionary changes (typically described as changes in allele frequencies) within a species or population.&#8221;</p>
<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macroevolution" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macroevolution</a></p>
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		<title>By: Last Angry Man</title>
		<link>http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2008/10/08/when-alternate-theories-don%e2%80%99t-make-for-a-good-curriculum/comment-page-4/#comment-74384</link>
		<dc:creator>Last Angry Man</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Oct 2008 22:29:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2008/10/08/when-alternate-theories-don%e2%80%99t-make-for-a-good-curriculum/#comment-74384</guid>
		<description>Uima, thank you.  That was quite concisely a great deal of what I was getting at: either micro-evolution or macro-evolution, they&#039;re both still evolution.  There is no difference.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Uima, thank you.  That was quite concisely a great deal of what I was getting at: either micro-evolution or macro-evolution, they&#8217;re both still evolution.  There is no difference.</p>
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		<title>By: Uima</title>
		<link>http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2008/10/08/when-alternate-theories-don%e2%80%99t-make-for-a-good-curriculum/comment-page-4/#comment-74383</link>
		<dc:creator>Uima</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Oct 2008 22:23:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2008/10/08/when-alternate-theories-don%e2%80%99t-make-for-a-good-curriculum/#comment-74383</guid>
		<description>&quot;But there are two subsets of evolution, micro evolution (variation) and macroevolution (change over time from simple to more complex).&quot;

To scientists, evolution is evolution.  It is creationists who try to put some barrier into evolution, dividing &quot;microevolution&quot; (which they sometimes call variation or adaptation) from &quot;macroevolution,&quot; and maintain that the former happens while the latter does not.  However, they don&#039;t actually define what they mean by those terms, or what the barrier is between them.

&quot;I insist that we do not conflate the two for the purposes of our discussion, because as I said, no one doubts variation.&quot;
But what we were talking about before IS evolution.  You seem to grant that evolution happens (which you want to rename as &#039;variation&#039; or adaptation&#039;), but that there is a limit.  It stops somewhere, somehow.  Where does it stop, and how?

&quot;It was discussed above what it would take to disprove evolution (may I say again, macroevolution). I submit that nothing will disprove evolution, because the worldview will remain intact and the contrary information will simply be incorporated into the framework.&quot;
It&#039;s not a worldview.  It&#039;s a scientific theory pertaining to one particular part of nature:  biological diversity.  In science, the theory has to explain the evidence.  As new evidence is found, the theory has to change to accommodate it, or be overturned in favour of a better one.  But of course the new theory has to explain all the things the older one did, and be testable, etc.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;But there are two subsets of evolution, micro evolution (variation) and macroevolution (change over time from simple to more complex).&#8221;</p>
<p>To scientists, evolution is evolution.  It is creationists who try to put some barrier into evolution, dividing &#8220;microevolution&#8221; (which they sometimes call variation or adaptation) from &#8220;macroevolution,&#8221; and maintain that the former happens while the latter does not.  However, they don&#8217;t actually define what they mean by those terms, or what the barrier is between them.</p>
<p>&#8220;I insist that we do not conflate the two for the purposes of our discussion, because as I said, no one doubts variation.&#8221;<br />
But what we were talking about before IS evolution.  You seem to grant that evolution happens (which you want to rename as &#8216;variation&#8217; or adaptation&#8217;), but that there is a limit.  It stops somewhere, somehow.  Where does it stop, and how?</p>
<p>&#8220;It was discussed above what it would take to disprove evolution (may I say again, macroevolution). I submit that nothing will disprove evolution, because the worldview will remain intact and the contrary information will simply be incorporated into the framework.&#8221;<br />
It&#8217;s not a worldview.  It&#8217;s a scientific theory pertaining to one particular part of nature:  biological diversity.  In science, the theory has to explain the evidence.  As new evidence is found, the theory has to change to accommodate it, or be overturned in favour of a better one.  But of course the new theory has to explain all the things the older one did, and be testable, etc.</p>
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