Eliminating Israel would, at most, provide a brief dip in the price of oil to American consumers. So, too, would an American abandonment of Israel. Rage over Israel is just one part of a larger rage at the West and everything not dar al Islam, and is a matter of indoctrination rather than legitimate grievance. On the other hand, victory in eradicating Israel might actually ignite that part of Islam obsessed with dar al harb to resurrect the oil embargo (or similar measures) in a final, all out attempt at bringing down the West. In the last 50 years, there has only been one instance of Muslims using oil as a weapon; and that turned out a mistake hurting the cartel more than it did us. The only situation, therefore, in which they might try it again, would be one having a real chance of success of increasing their power.

As we have discussed before, many people in the West remain blind to the real middle-eastern view. Because Israel figures prominently in Muslim local politics, they imagine it is the sole bone of contention. The oil-states of the middle-east focus on Israel mainly because it: a) occupies land they deem inseparable from dar al Islam, b) is within striking distance, and c) because it serves as a convenient distraction from the shortcomings of the local Muslim culture in its competition with the West for the soul of its people. Beyond these, they could care less about Israel. At the same time, Israel is an inseparable part of the West, which to Islam is the main enemy and target for conquest. It is the West, and especially the U.S., which bars Islam from resuming its conversion of dar al harb into dar al Islam. In that context, Israel is just one more infidel and far from the major obstacle to the agenda that we are.

Second, I think that Islamic rage at America (and democracy more broadly speaking) has little to do with American support of Israel. Since 1967 the “Palestinian cause” has been a convenient scapegoat used by Arab–and Muslim–leaders to avoid the pitfalls of modernization. The “endless struggle” between Jews and Arabs become a myth to replace the broader incompatibilities between a democratic state and that governed by Shar’ia law. Eliminating Israel will hardly eliminate these more elemental incompatibilities–and, I fear, lower the price of oil.

–my two cents

Nathan Alexander

Seriously, though, the people I feel sorry for are the good folks like Bob and Liz Berney, who’ve behaved like responsible adults in making political decisions. They can see what’s coming, and they have every right to be fearful about Israel’s future.

I didn’t begrudge Jewish voters voting for as a block for Lieberman in 2000, any more than I do blacks voting for Obama. We all get caught up in silliness like this from time to time. But in a world where the Left constantly lectures us about looking beyond race, sex and religion, to have one identifiable group constantly vote in overwhelming numbers against my interests has consequences. Maybe, like some people have offered, the vast majority of American Jews are afraid of conservative Chriatians, or maybe they are just socialists at heart, and that’s why they oppose Conservatives and Republicans. Or maybe they’re just idiots. Either way, I don’t care why they work against my interests, I only care that they do.

I’m not vindictive lkike the Left, however. The consequences I envision aren’t to actively work against that group’s interests, but rather to look at their interests through the narrow prism of my own — and to focus on immediate, tangible issues, not broad philosophical ones.

Therefore, whatever happens to Israel under a Jewish-supported Obama Administration, I will accept. I’ll hope that Obama lied about a new Middle East policy to get elected, and will keep the Bush policy intact. But if he doesn’t, I’ll let American Jews fight that battle alone.

The subject of my essay was Israel, but like Bob pointed out, it could just as well have been Black or Hispanic group-think.

Bob: It’s not my (or my relative’s) nose, because Israel is not my country.

I go back to a simple point. American Jews are much more intrinsically attuned to all things Israel than I am. In their wisdom, they voted overwhelmingly for Obama.

If an Obama presidency doesn’t bother 78% of American Jews, then why should I, a non-Jew, object to what Obama does to Israel?

Israel has been a strong friend and ally. But Obama wants to make nice with other Middle Eastern countries, and the American Jewish voters think that’s just fine. So why should I oppose any policy Obama puts forward with regard to Israel?

America also needs oil, and Obama will not allow any more domestic drilling. [Yes he said he would allow it if certain conditions are met, but they won't be met; and Nancy will block any new drilling anyway in Congress, and Obama won't oppose her, so there will be no new American oil.]

Israel has no oil, and the people who do are largely anti-Semitic. So whatever national security advantages there are to supporting Israel fade in recognition of this fact. I don’t like this calculation, but this is the reality of the world that an Obama presidency has given us. And we need to operate within that reality.

Again, all this was clear before 78% of American Jews voted for Obama. This is why I say they either don’t really care what happens to Israel, or do care abstractly — but have other domestic issues they care more about.

If the overwhelming number of American Jews were really passionate about Israel’s survival, as you contend, they would have voted for McCain. The fact that 78% of them didn’t means only one of two things:

(1) They aren’t as passionate about Israel (in comparison to other issues they are much more passionate about), or

(2) They are in fact as passionate as you contend, and they expressed this passion by voting for Obama — who promised fundamental changes in US Middle East policy.

Either way, you lose the point. If (1) is true, then my original point stands about “why should I care if American Jews don’t”. If (2) is true, then whatever Obama does is embraced by American Jews who passionately support Israel, so why should I object when he allows Iran to go nuclear, or makes nice with Hamas, etc? American Jews wanted Obama, and they deserve the foreign policy they get.

I know that Israelis see things differently and really supported McCain, but they don’t vote. American Jews do, and for 100+ years they have been actively opposing the principles I stand for by always voting for Liberals and Democrats.

I’m not advocating any harm to Israel. I’m just stating what I, and I believe a lot of other conservative, non-Jews have come to believe. I have other things I need to expend my political capital on these next 4 years (protecting my income, my freedom of speech, etc.). I no longer choose to expend that capital on protecting Israel from Obama, when American Jews overwhelmingly voted for Obama.

If American Jews come to believe that an Obama foreign policy harms Israel, they need to act. I wish them well, and I wish them success, but as a bystander, not a colleague in the fight.

When American Jews, as a group, begin to support my values and my candidates, I’ll again fight for some of their causes. Until then, Israel is just another country, one of many allies we have.

If it makes sense to pursue a policy that also helps Israel (like opposing Iran getting the bomb), I will. But I do this not because it may harm Israel, but because they can put the thing in the cargo hold of a ship and blow up NY harbor. This means I’m less concerned about Iran developing a medium range missile, because that missile can’t hit US soil. It may one day, but not for a long time. Until then I’ll fight the immediate battles I need to fight to protect myself and my family, because under an Obama Administration, there will be a lot of them.

You say, “I’m not entirely convinced that most American Jews really care that much about Israel anyway, which makes it even less important for me to care.”

I can assure you very few American Jews (be they liberal, conservative, secular, religious, or even hypercritical of Israel) are anything less than passionate about Israel’s survival. Trust me, liberal-Jews are convinced we conservative-Jews are the ones who don’t give a fig what happens to Israel, and label us dangerous and deranged.

Do you think it any different as regards non-Jewish liberals and conservatives? They consider you and me a danger to both the nation and world (mostly because they deal more with their own fantasies regarding who we are than who we are). But, so do we sometimes with respect to them. Neither we nor they imagine the others follies; yet, each of us does reduce the other to stereotypes with regularity. Surely you have liberal friends and family enough to know it isn’t they are anti-America or anti-founding principles (at least not most of them). Rather, it is they have such a grossly tortured sense of America and its principles as they can no longer operate without the tortured logic that stretches principles beyond any valid meaning. They too venerate the Constitution, even as they labor to alter it beyond recognition. They too cherish free-speech, even as they deny it to anyone suspect. They too respect the right to worship, so long as it doesn’t dominate the ‘secular’ bubble they created for themselves, but also fearing to allow it loose on the innocent and unwary. They fervently believe there is nothing amiss in curtailing your right to a gun; so long as it is rendered useless for anything other than playing with it in some hyper-controlled environment where no person or animal can get hurt (e.g., indoor shooting range), no government threatened or hampered, and no one feeling the least threatened by you. Heck, they even believe in rights the founders never heard of and would not approve!

Their notions of our government and how it is and should be structured is similarly tortured beyond recognition. How many times have we had to explain to them socialism is not liberalism (at least, not the brand of liberalism the founders bequeathed us), despite that’s the term we’re forced to use for them? Even then, they remain convinced they have it right and we have it wrong. Yet, these are our fellow citizens and family and we’re stuck working with them because we can’t get around them to set things right.

The point I keep making, here, about American Jews, is that your object lesson will be largely lost on them, yet may still damage Israel and Israelis to no point or advantage. This is like cutting off your own nose to tweak someone else (or, to be more exact, the nose of your friend’s cousin rather than the friend with whom you are annoyed). American Jews, if they notice your object lesson at all, will chalk it up to thinking you uncouth. When their policy fails to bring about the desired result of peace and security, they will still blame it on the policies of past conservatives; including any additional damage to Israel. I have shown the advantages of a strong Israel to American interests and Israel’s long patience and faith in us. That faith has been greatly strained by long inconstancy (on our part) and a willingness to treat with Israel’s implacable and irrational foes. Israel now sometimes acts as if it too is on a path of self-annihilation, but only because it has been taught too well to dance our tune and fearing to loose American support. You know earlier Israelis were nothing like today’s Israeli. But today’s Israel is also dependent on America far beyond the Israel that beat back a powerful five Arab-nation coalition in 1949 and three in 1967. It has been constant pressure and the threat of non-support that changed Israel from a lion to something more docile. Had we been less fickle in our support, leaving Israel a freer hand to settle its problems and not constantly butting in to score our own points and giving credence to insatiable Arab demands, Israel might now be both more secure and Palestinians less violent and more satisfied. Our ‘peace process’, rather than bringing closure, has been more like picking away at a wound, never allowing it to heal, and causing it to fester. If nothing else, we owe Israel something in the way of compensation for the damage we’ve caused, and the only compensation we conservatives can offer is to keep after Obama to honor our commitment.

Bob: I’m pretty much to the point where I’m applying my reasoning to all groups that have consistently worked against Conservative candidates for multiple presidential election cycles. Blacks fit that category. Hispanics to a large extent too.

My brother and I have been having this debate for a while. He believes we need to act like the adults in the relationship, and keep pulling the liberals’ chestnuts out of the fire when they get into trouble through their own stupidity. I’ve allowed this philosophy to govern my actions since 1992, even though I thought it was wrong headed. The 2008 election has confirmed for me that my initial instincts were correct.

If any group proposes a policy that is a direct threat to my interests (increased taxes, open borders, reparations, quota systems, etc.), I’ll work to oppose it. But if they do things that hurt their own group’s interests, I have no interest in cleaning up the mess. If blacks want a plantation mentality to govern their future, let ‘em. If Hispanics don’t want to learn English, let them suffer too (because I’ll do my best to support English-only legislation). If Jews want us to support Israel, I’ll be glad to do it if Obama does too. And this is the key point — But if Obama (the guy they overwhelmingly supported) screws Israel, I’m not going to do anything to work against that policy.

You know from my past writings that I don’t make decisions about people on the basis of race, skin color, etc. It’s not important to me, just like I never needed to know that you were Jewish until you chose to make that point. It’s your ideas and values that I’ve reacted to in the past (and continue to today), not your ancestry or religion.

I’ll still make individual decisions about helping individual people regardless of race, color or creed as I’ve done in the past. But as far as US policy towards a group or country is concerned, it’s foolishness to ignore the consistent, overwhelming actions of that group.

American Jews, as a group, have nothing in common with my value system as expressed by their repeated allegiance to the Democrat Party in general, and liberal/socialist policies in particular. They want Obama to make US foreign policy, so let Obama do it with an unfettered hand. If and when it backfires on them, so be it.

I’m not entirely convinced that most American Jews really care that much about Israel anyway, which makes it even less important for me to care. [If they did, they’d have voted for McCain … unless they like Obama’s rhetoric about a new US policy in the Middle East, in which case voting for Obama proves the point I just made. Either American Jews liked Obama’s signals about a new Middle East policy, or they didn’t care about that relative to other issues. Either way, Israel is not important to their calculation, so why should it be paramount to mine?].

Everything you said about the strategic and political importance of Israel is correct. Unfortunately, Israel has no oil, and under Obama we’re going to need all the uninterrupted foreign oil we can get. I don’t see how Obama can keep the US economy afloat in foreign oil without abandoning (or at least dramatically altering our relationship with) Israel. If he can support Israel and get us all the oil we need, I’d be very happy. But realistically, Obama will be more inclined to appease Hamas, Syria, Iran, the anti-Semitic UN and others than fight them, so I think Israel is going to get hosed.

Israel under Obama will be “just another country” in the Middle East. Iran will go nuclear. Israel will want to attack Iran, but Obama will stop Israel because it doesn’t want to offend the Arab states who have the oil we and the world need. The UN will condemn Israel for defending its borders against Arab terrorist attacks, and the US will not veto the resolution.

This isn’t the world I wanted, but it’s the one American Jews chose for Israel when they voted 78% for Obama.

It will be a tragedy of immeasurable proportions if Israel is harmed in a significant way by the Obama administration. But Israel is not my country. It is one of many allies we have in the world, and the American people — with the overwhelming support of American Jews — want “change”. So, let’s give it to them on Israel.

American Jews need to get their act together and realize that their collective actions have consequences. I’m no longer willing to expend my limited political capital on protecting them from their stupidity, when they work against my interests. I’ll pick other battles to protect the value system I hold and the material interests I posses. The harming of Israel will be a self-inflicted casualty, and like I said before, a “teachable moment” for others who think the adults will always rescue them from their own stupidity.

Take care, Phil

While I can appreciate you’d feel that way (i.e., letting us Jews stew in our own broth), I still beg you to reconsider. Which Jews are you so miffed at, which do want punished – ours or Israel’s? And, why pick on Jews in particular to teach a lesson? Ours was not the only group to bolt. Didn’t the Muslim, Hispanic, and the youth vote swing to Obama just as much? Didn’t the feminist, after much agonizing (and hope from our side), still vote according to party? Didn’t the old media unabashedly guard his back? Didn’t a record number of black conservatives and independents endorse and vote Obama without much thought to his politics in the rush to see one of their own finally fill the Oval Office?

Israel has been a faithful partner in our war on terror. Israelis worked hand-in-hand with Bush I to keep the first Iraq War from turning into a general melee at enormous risk to themselves. My brother-in-law and his family live in Jerusalem, where they were subjected to Scud missiles raining in from Iraq. Israel has gone along with every policy we have pushed since Carter first pressured them into making lopsided peace, often when the overtures have been nothing more than Arab land grabs without security guarantees worth spit, and just as often as political sops for American presidents. Israel also cooperated with Bush II to make the war on terror a success, again and often deferring its own security interests to the greater good of the partnership. Now we propose to just let Obama scrap all that? If Israel is sufficiently damaged from Obama’s inept handling, America still ends up loosing strategically. If you read the Israeli press, you’d realize Jews here see things very differently from Jews there where security takes precedence over wishful thinking. There too liberals dominate, but the split is closer to 40/60. Jews here vote peace without immediate risk to themselves of a botched appeasement. People with families at risk in far away places always vote that way, and it goes a long way to explaining why 1-in-3 American Jews always vote appeasement. Jews there, on the other hand, vote peace or security, but, either way, it is their own necks at risk.

Don’t put so much stock in the ‘disproportionate Jewish influence’ myth, either. We had our day and are still vocal, but we’re hardly the only vocal minority in America. African-Americans, have had greater influence since the early 1970s, feminists drowned out everyone in the late 1970s, Latino activists shouldered us aside in the mid-1980s, and Muslim activists are gaining on us and will soon overtake us. To these you can add Cubans, Asian, and gays as having influence on par with us. How many influential Jewish talking heads, comedians, actors, politicians, financial wizards, &c do you see in the media, and how have we fared compared to the growing representation of other groups? It is groups on the rise that have greater influence than those on the wane out of all proportion to numbers. Jewish influence is shrinking even faster than our numbers. If we retain any influence now, it must be through force of argument or conspicuous success.

[Note: When I look at Jewish commentators, I see a high percentage are conservatives and independents out of all proportion to our voting habits. Look how many Jews post to this one conservative blog, again out of proportion to our numbers. If there are Jews working hard to influence public opinion, it is us more than our liberal brethren. Ergo – so much for Jewish influence since we can’t even seem to persuade our own meshuganim.]

I know it is frustrating loosing an election after we’ve accomplished so much. I also know the frustration of seeing our own leadership go wobbly, acting more like liberals than liberals. But, Obama is inexperienced and ‘blessed’ with a Democrat Congress and Senate – guaranteeing he will over-reach and over-reach so badly the country will demand a return to sanity. I just pray he doesn’t over-reach so far the damage takes generations to repair as has happened before. My most fervent wish is that Obama have a successful and reasonable term in office, even if that means he gets re-elected. I am less concerned which party rules than that, whichever party rules, it does the right things, the right way, and without leaving us crushing burdens. I would love to see the Democrat Party swing away from radicalism, becoming the centrist they always pretend. Maybe they will find playing the radical while out of power is less useful than playing the centrist while in. I pray he also does the right thing by Israel. If he can find a lasting peace formula (that doesn’t screw Israel) and put a lid on terror, more power to him. I just don’t have much confidence he can do it because I know his politics and distrust the way he operates; and, if he does, will be at war with his own party. For all these reasons, we need to be a strong, vocal, vigilant and resourceful opposition keeping things from getting too much out of hand. And, we need your strong voice to do that.

“I remind everyone that liberal-Jews are generally convinced it is they and the Democrat Party that best supports the interests and preservation of Israel …”.

I agree, and what’s more, I think it’s time we put this to the test.

American Jews didn’t just kind-of vote for Obama, they put their money, time and resources solidly behind electing him. In light of this, I’m willing to give an Obama presidency free reign with regard to Israel to see if in fact the Democrat party in general, and Obama in particular, have Israel’s best interests at heart.

If Obama does, then there’s no harm to Israel. If he doesn’t, then let the chips fall where they may. It becomes a “teachable moment” as American Jews come face to face with the stupidity of their actions. Then maybe we’ll have less propaganda and financial support given to the opponents of Conservatism in future elections.

It’s too bad the teachable moment may be allowing Iran to become a nuclear power, but I didn’t vote for Obama. 78% of American Jews did.