Comments on: The Ignoramus Americus http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2008/12/26/the-ignoramus-americus/ Conservative and Libertarian Intellectual Philosophy and Politics Wed, 08 Feb 2012 23:00:53 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Vrahos http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2008/12/26/the-ignoramus-americus/comment-page-1/#comment-75725 Vrahos Wed, 31 Dec 2008 17:55:52 +0000 http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2008/12/26/the-ignoramus-americus/#comment-75725 I don't necessary disagree with your conclusion, but do have question marks with the basis of your conclusion. Dumbing down of society is not measured by a basic test. I don't think it is important to know where exactly Columbus landed to make a good moral judgement. In my opinion, dumbing down of society has several causes: 1. For those familiar with the works of Jose Ortega y Gasset, society consists out of noble and mass man. In a democracy mass man is in majority. Hense a democracy will likely end up in mass man's cravings. 2. Technological advances. Some subjects like math, we can do without knowing much of the subject since we have computers who can do it for us. All we need to know now is how to operate a computer. Schools are not teaching the same subjects and same depth of subjects as they used to. 3. Since schools are more about delivering a percentage of graduates, as opposed to delivering good graduates no matter how many, quality of graduates has deminished. 4. Point 3 is also a cause of over the edge left wing politics and an overdone anti-discrimination policy, that also got us into the current economical crisis. Discriminating based upon race, color, sex etc. is not good but you have to stay realistic. 5. Complecancy. This is the most dangerous of all and at this point irreversable. Coming back to point 1, Beavis and Butthead are the icons of American society, so I doubt if we even have 20% noble man left. But the MTV generation is complacent and has no idea other than feeding themselves with mainstream ideas and following the masses where critical thinking is required. When a society evolves from an agricultural to industrial to technological society it starts relying upon knowledge to evolve to an information society. This is where we are supposed to be heading. Instead, we have less knowledge and we will fall back to where we started. Other societies, hard working with a backbone still intact, diciplined and high in moral, will take our place. See here your future America. I don’t necessary disagree with your conclusion, but do have question marks with the basis of your conclusion. Dumbing down of society is not measured by a basic test. I don’t think it is important to know where exactly Columbus landed to make a good moral judgement.
In my opinion, dumbing down of society has several causes:
1. For those familiar with the works of Jose Ortega y Gasset, society consists out of noble and mass man. In a democracy mass man is in majority. Hense a democracy will likely end up in mass man’s cravings.
2. Technological advances. Some subjects like math, we can do without knowing much of the subject since we have computers who can do it for us. All we need to know now is how to operate a computer. Schools are not teaching the same subjects and same depth of subjects as they used to.
3. Since schools are more about delivering a percentage of graduates, as opposed to delivering good graduates no matter how many, quality of graduates has deminished.
4. Point 3 is also a cause of over the edge left wing politics and an overdone anti-discrimination policy, that also got us into the current economical crisis. Discriminating based upon race, color, sex etc. is not good but you have to stay realistic.
5. Complecancy. This is the most dangerous of all and at this point irreversable. Coming back to point 1, Beavis and Butthead are the icons of American society, so I doubt if we even have 20% noble man left. But the MTV generation is complacent and has no idea other than feeding themselves with mainstream ideas and following the masses where critical thinking is required. When a society evolves from an agricultural to industrial to technological society it starts relying upon knowledge to evolve to an information society. This is where we are supposed to be heading. Instead, we have less knowledge and we will fall back to where we started. Other societies, hard working with a backbone still intact, diciplined and high in moral, will take our place.
See here your future America.

]]> By: Ivan Ivanovich http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2008/12/26/the-ignoramus-americus/comment-page-1/#comment-75720 Ivan Ivanovich Tue, 30 Dec 2008 16:47:52 +0000 http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2008/12/26/the-ignoramus-americus/#comment-75720 Mickey G I didn't fall for anything. I didn't have any choice in paying in, but when I had a chance to collect I was working and didn't bother to make a claim. Later I was out of work, due to age discrimination, and I decided to apply for SS. On my way out of the SS office, I got a call with a job offer and I took it. I made some money, but also made an effort to stay under the maximum, and I also had fun working. This afternoon I have an interview for a job and my SS receipts will be a consideration. Maximizing my income while enjoying life is my goal. Whatever the return, I still say SS is not welfare. It’s more like a Ponzi scheme, so I guess we could say that FDR=Madoff*1,000. But then if Madoff was paying you with other people’s money, would you refuse to take it? You might be right about the end of the USA, but we won’t be around to see it. We are just Romans in 350 AD. Mickey G

I didn’t fall for anything. I didn’t have any choice in paying in, but when I had a chance to collect I was working and didn’t bother to make a claim. Later I was out of work, due to age discrimination, and I decided to apply for SS. On my way out of the SS office, I got a call with a job offer and I took it. I made some money, but also made an effort to stay under the maximum, and I also had fun working. This afternoon I have an interview for a job and my SS receipts will be a consideration. Maximizing my income while enjoying life is my goal.
Whatever the return, I still say SS is not welfare. It’s more like a Ponzi scheme, so I guess we could say that FDR=Madoff*1,000. But then if Madoff was paying you with other people’s money, would you refuse to take it?
You might be right about the end of the USA, but we won’t be around to see it. We are just Romans in 350 AD.

]]> By: Mickey G http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2008/12/26/the-ignoramus-americus/comment-page-1/#comment-75719 Mickey G Tue, 30 Dec 2008 14:31:05 +0000 http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2008/12/26/the-ignoramus-americus/#comment-75719 Ivan, you fell for the SS propaganda. The way the system works is the less you pay in the "higher return" you receive on what you paid in e.g. your contributions did not support the amount you receive. If you review the system you will see that the more you paid in the lower the return you receive and the maximum contributors will have to live a long time to get contributions back. Personal accounts would have solved this disparity and allowed the welfare part to be easily recognizable, hence the fight to not allow privitization. As far as being a third rail I agree those getting something for little buy in recognize a good deal when they see it. Tax those evil rich so I can have more...leading to the end of the USA as we knew it. By the way my first maximum SS year was 1959 one year after high school graduation. Ivan, you fell for the SS propaganda. The way the system works is the less you pay in the “higher return” you receive on what you paid in e.g. your contributions did not support the amount you receive. If you review the system you will see that the more you paid in the lower the return you receive and the maximum contributors will have to live a long time to get contributions back. Personal accounts would have solved this disparity and allowed the welfare part to be easily recognizable, hence the fight to not allow privitization. As far as being a third rail I agree those getting something for little buy in recognize a good deal when they see it. Tax those evil rich so I can have more…leading to the end of the USA as we knew it. By the way my first maximum SS year was 1959 one year after high school graduation.

]]> By: How ignorant are you? - LDS Mormon Forums http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2008/12/26/the-ignoramus-americus/comment-page-1/#comment-75711 How ignorant are you? - LDS Mormon Forums Mon, 29 Dec 2008 20:20:23 +0000 http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2008/12/26/the-ignoramus-americus/#comment-75711 [...] of people that future generations will vote into office based on this report. Here is the article. Intellectual Conservative Politics and Philosophy Here is the quiz. Civic Literacy Report - Civics Quiz If you aren't ashamed post and tell us how [...] [...] of people that future generations will vote into office based on this report. Here is the article. Intellectual Conservative Politics and Philosophy Here is the quiz. Civic Literacy Report – Civics Quiz If you aren’t ashamed post and tell us how [...]

]]> By: mike.musculus http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2008/12/26/the-ignoramus-americus/comment-page-1/#comment-75709 mike.musculus Mon, 29 Dec 2008 19:41:33 +0000 http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2008/12/26/the-ignoramus-americus/#comment-75709 Some really good comments here... I would just like to make a snarky observation: <i>What was stated:</i> "Most distressingly, the civics survey found that almost 25 percent of <b>us believe that Congress shares its foreign policy powers with the United Nations.</b> " Based on recent comments from SCOTUS, I'm thinking many of our Black-robed High Priests are included in the aforementioned figure, but I seem to remember their number at more like 4, (in some decisions 5) out of 9. Some really good comments here…

I would just like to make a snarky observation:
What was stated:
“Most distressingly, the civics survey found that almost 25 percent of us believe that Congress shares its foreign policy powers with the United Nations. ”

Based on recent comments from SCOTUS, I’m thinking many of our Black-robed High Priests are included in the aforementioned figure, but I seem to remember their number at more like 4, (in some decisions 5) out of 9.

]]> By: Bob Stapler http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2008/12/26/the-ignoramus-americus/comment-page-1/#comment-75704 Bob Stapler Mon, 29 Dec 2008 00:11:42 +0000 http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2008/12/26/the-ignoramus-americus/#comment-75704 Okay, I got 32 out of 33 right. Not a particularly challenging test for this crowd, but I was a little surprised the national average is even lower than a similar test given couple of years ago. Living as I do close to the nation's capital and in deep-blue country, I am not the least surprised by the office-holder gap. Most office-holders are twits appointed for their party loyalty rather than intellect or competence. Elected officials aren't much better, as we don't require them to take tests like this one to qualify. Now, there's an idea! I agree with you, Mickey, at least about question #30 as that should be regarded more an opinion of best-practice than proved principle. There are still a lot of economists who'd argue against this un-tax + spend formula. Does gravity apply differently to government than the rest of us? If austerity works for the rest of us, why would government be exempt? Spending in a recession may stimulate things a little, but it takes an inordinate amount of spending for only a little regain, and the outcome depends on how deep the recession and how long it takes stimulating your way out of it. Too long, and you've just dug a deeper hole. Okay, I got 32 out of 33 right. Not a particularly challenging test for this crowd, but I was a little surprised the national average is even lower than a similar test given couple of years ago. Living as I do close to the nation’s capital and in deep-blue country, I am not the least surprised by the office-holder gap. Most office-holders are twits appointed for their party loyalty rather than intellect or competence. Elected officials aren’t much better, as we don’t require them to take tests like this one to qualify. Now, there’s an idea!

I agree with you, Mickey, at least about question #30 as that should be regarded more an opinion of best-practice than proved principle. There are still a lot of economists who’d argue against this un-tax + spend formula. Does gravity apply differently to government than the rest of us? If austerity works for the rest of us, why would government be exempt? Spending in a recession may stimulate things a little, but it takes an inordinate amount of spending for only a little regain, and the outcome depends on how deep the recession and how long it takes stimulating your way out of it. Too long, and you’ve just dug a deeper hole.

]]> By: Ivan Ivanovich http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2008/12/26/the-ignoramus-americus/comment-page-1/#comment-75701 Ivan Ivanovich Sun, 28 Dec 2008 07:24:23 +0000 http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2008/12/26/the-ignoramus-americus/#comment-75701 Mickey G Not to belabor the point but, I see a logical flaw in your statement: "...as a maximum contributor to SS for 45 or so years I will never even receive all of my contributions in return and I pay the ultimate insult of being taxed on those contributions twice, once when I received the paycheck, again when I receive the SS check. So, is SS a welfare system? You bet!" A1. You have been a contributor A2. You claim that you will never get YOUR money back A3. You have had to pay tax on contributions, twice B. SS is a welfare system Only A1 & B prove anything. A2 & A3 just prove you are mad and you use this to justify your illogical conclusion. If you paid in, then receiveing a return is NOT welfare. Welfare is something people get without paying in. As far as means testing, with SS the more you earn the more you pay, up to a limit. The more you earn the more you get back, up to a limit. Most means testing works the other way around, like welfare. The less you earn the more you get. Mickey G

Not to belabor the point but, I see a logical flaw in your statement: “…as a maximum contributor to SS for 45 or so years I will never even receive all of my contributions in return and I pay the ultimate insult of being taxed on those contributions twice, once when I received the paycheck, again when I receive the SS check. So, is SS a welfare system? You bet!”

A1. You have been a contributor
A2. You claim that you will never get YOUR money back
A3. You have had to pay tax on contributions, twice
B. SS is a welfare system

Only A1 & B prove anything. A2 & A3 just prove you are mad and you use this to justify your illogical conclusion. If you paid in, then receiveing a return is NOT welfare. Welfare is something people get without paying in.

As far as means testing, with SS the more you earn the more you pay, up to a limit. The more you earn the more you get back, up to a limit. Most means testing works the other way around, like welfare. The less you earn the more you get.

]]> By: joeblough http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2008/12/26/the-ignoramus-americus/comment-page-1/#comment-75700 joeblough Sun, 28 Dec 2008 05:58:24 +0000 http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2008/12/26/the-ignoramus-americus/#comment-75700 We have got to face the fact that America did <b><i>not</i></b> win the ideological wars of the 20th Century. <b><i>We lost!</i></b> Lamentable? Inappropriate? Unexpected? Sure. Life stinks. Our unprecedented wealth, productivity and the military superiority that goes with those give us the illusion that we came out on top across the board. But we didn't. Not on ideology. Let us all shed a tear and then man-up. We won't get anywhere with this unless we face the facts. We've got to start thinking in terms of where we really are, where we want to go, and what is the path from here to there. In a certain sense, we are starting out all over again. And we don't, I believe, have any really relevant precedents to follow. As has often been the case for America. We have got to face the fact that America did not win the ideological wars of the 20th Century. We lost!

Lamentable? Inappropriate? Unexpected? Sure.

Life stinks.

Our unprecedented wealth, productivity and the military superiority that goes with those give us the illusion that we came out on top across the board. But we didn’t. Not on ideology.

Let us all shed a tear and then man-up.

We won’t get anywhere with this unless we face the facts.

We’ve got to start thinking in terms of where we really are, where we want to go, and what is the path from here to there.

In a certain sense, we are starting out all over again.

And we don’t, I believe, have any really relevant precedents to follow.

As has often been the case for America.

]]> By: Ivan Ivanovich http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2008/12/26/the-ignoramus-americus/comment-page-1/#comment-75696 Ivan Ivanovich Sat, 27 Dec 2008 17:33:58 +0000 http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2008/12/26/the-ignoramus-americus/#comment-75696 Richard I got 30 out of 33 also. #4, #30, & #33 were trick questions:>) Mickey G Again, you missed my point, or I did a bad job of explaining. As long as welfare and SS are lumped together we will never have any restrictions on welfare. SS is the third rail. BTW, I recall my first full year of work, I think it was 1962, I paid $63 in SS tax. Most years after that I maxed out by September. Best Wishes. Richard
I got 30 out of 33 also. #4, #30, & #33 were trick questions:>)

Mickey G

Again, you missed my point, or I did a bad job of explaining. As long as welfare and SS are lumped together we will never have any restrictions on welfare. SS is the third rail. BTW, I recall my first full year of work, I think it was 1962, I paid $63 in SS tax. Most years after that I maxed out by September. Best Wishes.

]]> By: Mickey G http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2008/12/26/the-ignoramus-americus/comment-page-1/#comment-75695 Mickey G Sat, 27 Dec 2008 17:04:38 +0000 http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2008/12/26/the-ignoramus-americus/#comment-75695 Ivan, as a maximum contributor to SS for 45 or so years I will never even receive all of my contributions in return and I pay the ultimate insult of being taxed on those contributions twice, once when I received the paycheck, again when I receive the SS check. So, is SS a welfare system? You bet! Any system that is means tested is a welfare system. By the way I graduated high school in 1958 from a fairly elite military high school. Dirt poor family so I was a scholarship kid brought in to raise the school scores on the College Boards. I've had the poor kid chip on my shoulder since I realized we were poor by seeing my classmates families. Along with the chip I avoid anything looking like a handout like the plague. Most of the SS recipients that I see (seems like almost all of my friends are over 65) are working at least part time. I went back to work full time because acclimatizing to retirement when you averaged 80-100 hours per week during your working life is almost impossible. Thought going back to academia would be a good move but it is disappointing to see the output of the system. My #2 daughter is an Ivy PHD professor and she relates the same stories that I encounter, however hers are even worse as she relates that colleges are trying to give feel good grades in the develpmental coursed (read high school courses for those that slept through high school). If the grade curve is not canted to the right the teachers must be demanding too much. Only time you will see liberals go to the right. Regarding Orwell, I thought Huxley might be closer to Obama's Change you can believe in (the corollary being he does not believe in it). Wonder when we will be required to capitalize the h in him when discussing Obama. Ivan, as a maximum contributor to SS for 45 or so years I will never even receive all of my contributions in return and I pay the ultimate insult of being taxed on those contributions twice, once when I received the paycheck, again when I receive the SS check. So, is SS a welfare system? You bet! Any system that is means tested is a welfare system.

By the way I graduated high school in 1958 from a fairly elite military high school. Dirt poor family so I was a scholarship kid brought in to raise the school scores on the College Boards. I’ve had the poor kid chip on my shoulder since I realized we were poor by seeing my classmates families. Along with the chip I avoid anything looking like a handout like the plague.

Most of the SS recipients that I see (seems like almost all of my friends are over 65) are working at least part time. I went back to work full time because acclimatizing to retirement when you averaged 80-100 hours per week during your working life is almost impossible. Thought going back to academia would be a good move but it is disappointing to see the output of the system. My #2 daughter is an Ivy PHD professor and she relates the same stories that I encounter, however hers are even worse as she relates that colleges are trying to give feel good grades in the develpmental coursed (read high school courses for those that slept through high school). If the grade curve is not canted to the right the teachers must be demanding too much. Only time you will see liberals go to the right.

Regarding Orwell, I thought Huxley might be closer to Obama’s Change you can believe in (the corollary being he does not believe in it). Wonder when we will be required to capitalize the h in him when discussing Obama.

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