In the use of force, we are not allowed to deface the image of God in Man.

Go for it.

The Nuremburg Trials were about Nazis atrocities and made the world aware of the horrendous evil of man expressed against humanity. And in the trial from a Jewish Rabbi we are reminded that each of us left to ourselves are capable of the same horror of evil. -STalin was no piker-

The torture described was about the violent inflicting of pain and death upon innocents (Western View).

Remembered a conversation with an elderly lady assembling here father’s memoirs. She spoke of the true Lawrence of Arabia who was in her home (she as a child) on many occasions. We talked about the Turks and Islamic people.

Refreshed my conversations with an old man who recounted the terror of Islam as they wandered across Africa up through Spain and then mired against the Mongols?? in Eastern Europe. The brutality of this march was unspeakable against innocent peoples – In the city of Fez the whole of the Christian population was wiped out by the sword, and the invaders swished their hats in the blood of the martyrs, as the blood ran into the ground and in the streets. They were stopped by the barbarians and by the plagues.

Several conversations with those who have lived and some who are living among Islamic people and others in the third world ungoverned by Western Thought. Very stirring and intellectually challenging.

One man a pilot with great intensity -also a very gracious man – and “here is the discussion of the men from 911 who used box cutters to slit the throats of the stewardesses and allowed them to die, bleeding to death in the presence of the passengers.”

English leadership perpetrated some of the most horrendous acts of vile pain upon those kept in the dungeons.

My conversations this past week were with my grandsons about the purging of the Jewish people during plagues in Europe. We moved into the brutality of man to man and random violence.

Had conversation with canine officer apprehending fleeing criminals and the process used to release a police dog. Interesting.

1959 – reading a newspaper on a bus in Seattle while heading for the ferry to Bremerton was my first awareness (clearly) of the changing of words = use of force in police action was changed to violence.

Bringing detainees to America and housing them in our prisons or some kind of restraint is the heighth of stupidity and almost an act of treason (my opinion). The leadership in our country is disintegrating – not only dissembling. Allies don’t want them and we house them?

My talk with former military -as above – was spirited and empassioned. They distinquished betweeen torturing innocents and persuading combatants.

No one quoted and eye for an eye stuff (this is about legal resolution of loss of property or unintentional harm).

I have only begun to assemble information about torture of innocents and persuasion of combatants. At present it seems to me there needs to be a dose of reality in our discussion by incorporating testimony of those who have been there.

Legal wrangling over minutiae -jousting with words – is good for us as it keeps us concious of what it means to live in a nation – at least for a while – which “holds these truths self evident …”
Dale

PS – I have been threatened, spit upon, rocked, harrassed, insulted, maligned for speaking in public forums about Christianity and about what is “Truth” – and so what? this is life.

Just received – last two weeks – word that brothers have been beaten, cut, killed, burned out by those intent upon silencing our march for Truth.

So keep up the Dynamic Interaction but at least take it into the streets (Yes, I lived in the 60′s – exciting, dynamic, passionate) and a lot of those who rebelled have become our instructors and their children are setting the agendas in the governments and classrooms!!

Have a good one
Shalom
Peace ::grins::

Surely you are not in the habit of making baseless charges and then when confronted, being embarrassingly unable to support them, are you?

Surely not.

Oz

You’ve had plenty of time, surely you’ve been able to come up with something, haven’t you? After all, you clearly accused me of considering the General to be a traitor of some sort. Why did you do that, if there is not evidence that it is true? Is intellectual honesty of any interest to you?

Thanks, and hope to hear from you soon, Patrick!

Oz

Oz

I am not interested…in the ideas refined in debate about morality and ethics in safe circles of cyberspace or the college classroom.

My brothers have paid the price for the freedom we enjoy to discourse in the realm of digital communciation.

Amen to all of that. Those points are well-taken. I make it a point to avoid second-guessing the actions of men and women who are under fire, putting their own lives at risk for us. The experiences you mention are unimaginable to me.

I hear you when you say you are not talking about the Bush Administration’s actions — but I must simply say that I AM talking about those actions, and usually my criticisms have been confined to the civilian leadership, not the front-line soldiers or operatives.

As far as the question of ‘how to get information from terrorists’, I’m afraid I can’t add much more to what I’ve already said…there are better ways, with far less ‘downside’ than employing brutal physical coercion and torture. It is beneath us.

(And by the way, lest we forget, torture is illegal. Agree or disagree with torture as a tool, it remains that fact that it is a crime. People should be called to account for committing crimes, I think.)

Oz

Good start – thanks for the candor. I have asked my friends about this – most of us old white dudes with a lot of experience. I need to know from those who were there, first hand. As a pursuit driven by “it is the glory of man to search out a matter.”

I drift in circles where POW’s wander about and with men who have watched their brother’s in arms agonize into death. Some men I have spoken with made decisions in the face of (tales you would not believe) sheer terror and the subsequent maneuvers for survival.

Here is a list of men I have spoken with. Today a survivor of the Battle of the Bulge. And in the past, A man 10 years in the French For’ Leg’, Another at Guadal Canal (sp), Another under the march of taking no prisoners when No Kor invaded So.K, Another who lived in the black world for years, POW-VN whose guts were left hanging to the ground while under torture, Prisoner under Japaneese torture, Two women who jumped into a freezing river under the advance and torture of the No.Kor. Woman whose whole family were slaughered through torture in the Camps, A fugitive former SS living in isolation in the hill country and now dead, Another Med Doc administered aid to his aide blown in pieces by a grenade, Another who watched young girls with machine gun strapped to their back begin annihilatng brothers-VN. Another advisor who worked with the tortured in the jungles of SE Asia. Another with the SeeBee’s in Philippines telling of stories arriving in Manila and talkiing to POW’s, A family escaped from the Turk Armin War, A survivor of the death Camps-Europe, Young islamic boy terrorized by Sadam H people in N. Iraq. Special Forces man who took aid to Kurds and transported the tortured to hospitals, An Intel man, now dead lived among the Iraqi’s and could speak with some presence of mind about the torture of innocent people, Another on ?? the inside of the US march up through the Island towards Japan and the projected carnage to Allies.

Many of the above were tortured, traumatized by watching torture perpetrated on family or brothers, watched the sytematic annihilation of a people, watched barbarian thugs decimate villages, crawled into the holes where the records were kept, rode into the Camps and unfortunately they will not talk about torture.

I have recalled recently for another reason, the plea for forgiveness of one who lived in the black world and did “things commanded of a soldier” and “would God forgive him?”

I am not interested, but of course I am, in the ideas refined in debate about morality and ethics in safe circles of cyberspace or the college classroom. This is often where I wander about. But I will begin to stir up some commotion in the coffee shops and lounge tables with the question I posed to you.

I have started my pilgirmage on this path just recently with some men I know who have lived the Hell of Terror. Many of the men are of high moral character in the traditional sense. The answers and questions are intense and compassionate at the same time. I look with anticipation and a gut wrenching response to their answers

So, please, those of you who have influence in the media and who have access to the minds of the mindles, don’t let up. Speak Truth with Power and Courage. My brothers have paid the price for the freedom we enjoy to discourse in the realm of digital communciation. These are not my circles.

“The sound you hear on your radio is a practice signal,,,if you hear this ….” This is for real, let’s do it! In the word which sends chills down the spine of those who have lived it, and of those who will stand on the wall while we sleep – who-aaahh! And for the men who walk in our parades of national pride!

Love ya!
Oh, yeh! I just remembered my mindless, fanatical Christian friends who have stood before the torturers. They expereinced and experience today around the globe absolutely horrendous evil perpetrated upon peaceful, gracious and eternally kind, simple human beings.
I stand proud with them and someday unless we turn this around – I too will probably receive the abuse. Read John Perkins.

So OZ and OTB people: what are the solutions to getting information from enemy combatants and from Terrorists captured?

Excellent question, Dale.

First of all, I’ve yet to see the slightest shred of evidence that torture actually ‘works’ better than more conventional interrogation (using shrewd psychological manipulation and relationship-building, rather than inflicting physical pain). Government intelligence agencies, law enforcement, prisons – these organizations have historically developed techniques that are really quite effective.

Second of all, there is considerable evidence that some of the people we mistreated were not terrorists at all, and probably had no useful information. One, in fact, was a 15-year-old boy (see above). Some may not have even been combatants – there was just little or no due process involved.

So when you ask, getting information ‘from terrorists’, you are already misstating the reality of the actions the Bush Administration approved.

Remember, many of these folks were not plucked from combat and urgently interrogated on the battlefield – they were kept for years and systematically tortured.

Finally, I have never disputed that torture might ‘work’ on certain occasions. Of course it might. But my view is that there are certain lines that we just shouldn’t cross, and historically, torturing our enemies has been one of them.

We might (theoretically) save American lives by torturing, but the resulting inflammation of the enemy population and loss of support among our allies will likely COST lives. Not to mention the likelihood that our own boys will suffer more if captured.

Oz

Is that the same “General Betray Us” who Ozzie and friends have scapegoated as the warmongering master of torture? Curious choice for a new spokesman.

(Italics contributed by the OTB staff.)

Hi Patrick!

Kindly provide the slightest evidence of your claim that I have scapegoated Petaeus as a ‘warmongering master of torture.’

If that is too challenging, please provide any evidence that I have ever criticized the General in any way whatsoever. Or that any of ‘my friends’ have.

My goodness, Patrick, I hope this is not yet another example of the dominant debating style on Intellectual Con-straw-vative: being unable to cope with the actual arguments of your opponent, instead attribute extremely asinine views to your opponent and argue against THOSE views–the ones that you’ve just confabulated. Because that’s a lot easier, I imagine.

For the record, I think General Petraeus is a brilliant military leader. From what I’ve seen, I’m proud as hell of him. And so are all of ‘my friends’.

Moveon.org is no friend of mine, sorry.

Oz