Comments on: Infant-in-Chief Obama and the Babies Take Over

By: Ozzie_M

Ozzie_M — Tue, 05 May 2009 14:12:48 +0000

I rest my case. Thanks all, it’s been a bracing discussion.

Ozzie

By: Mountain Man

Mountain Man — Tue, 05 May 2009 14:10:43 +0000

Torture the terrorist b*st*rds.

By: Ozzie_M

Ozzie_M — Mon, 04 May 2009 22:05:10 +0000

Well, Mountain, let’s recap.

I’ve quoted the following thoughtful conservatives who agree that we tortured detainees:

Steven Bradbury
Peggy Noonan
Rick Warren
Jonah Goldberg
Rod Dreher
John McCain
Christopher Tollefson
Jim Manzi
George Will

(By the way, I read a recent poll saying that 70% of Americans believe that waterboarding is torture.)

I’ve explained in detail why the mistreatment clearly meets the definition of torture.

I pointed out specific instances when we hung Japanese and imprisoned lots of others for doing it, including our own citizens. I described the treaties and statutes that outlaw it.

And what substantive responses has Mountain Man made to all of this?

“Torture the terrorist b*st*rds. Take ‘em out in the most painful way possible.”

Nice, Mountain. One of us is losing this argument badly, and it ain’t me.

“Anyone who knows what waterboarding is could not be unsure. It is a horrible torture technique used by Pol Pot,” – John McCain, October 2007.

By: Ozzie_M

Ozzie_M — Mon, 04 May 2009 21:52:10 +0000

I can’t speak for other vets that read this blog but can speak for myself and I went through it in our survival/capture training and it is not a big deal.

Waterboarding, in an of itself, in all situations, is not necessarily torture. For example, in the SERE training scenario, it clearly is not. There are many, many crucial differences between a training exercise and what was done to the detainees. I’ve enumerated them before, as have many people. I could rehash them, but they seem so obvious it’s hard to see why I’d need to.

What we did to the detainees went well beyond a brief exposure to waterboarding.

Beating, chaining to the ceiling, days-long stress positions, prolonged sensory deprivation/isolation, locking in boxes, sexual humiliation, sleep deprivation, starvation, and dozens (or hundreds) of waterboarding sessions. Stretched across years. With detainees never knowing if they would be killed the next day or the next hour.

This was systematic, brutal mistreatment, inflicted on the orders of the Administration. And I seriously doubt anything worthwhile came of it. It’s beneath us, in my opinion, but more importantly, it is illegal and counterproductive.

But let’s have a prosecution, or at least a truth and reconciliation commission. Just air it all out. Why not? If you believe it was all justifiable and legal, surely you’d agree, right?

By: Mountain Man

Mountain Man — Mon, 04 May 2009 21:47:41 +0000

Yes, you are just repeating yourself. Louder and louder. But that doesn’t make it any truer than the first time.

“IT’S TORTURE, IT’S TORTURE, IT’S TORTURE.”

Just keep repeating that. Yup, convince yourself you are right. Geneva Convention and all. Illegal. Sure.

By: Ozzie_M

Ozzie_M — Mon, 04 May 2009 21:37:35 +0000

I have read plenty of history, Mickey. Both you and Mountain seem invested in pointing out that the terrorists are barbaric, delusional, amoral fanatics who want to slaughter us all. Can we just stipulate that and move on? Everybody already knows that. Why keep repeating the obvious?

Again, I am consistently struck by your need to minimize and downplay the brutal mistreatment inflicted on the detainees. I’d have some modicum of respect for your perspective if you could face what was done, honestly, and say “It was quite awful, but necessary.”

But instead, there is this compulsion to look away: “Frat type hazing”, “Putting a caterpillar in a cell”, “splashing water on someone’s face.” Why do you all feel such a need to distance yourselves from the reality with such glib rationalizations? Can’t you even engage the discussion on a reality-oriented basis?

Read the excerpts from the Red Cross report. This is ‘frat-type hazing’? Maybe from the University of Hell, Mickey.

—————————————–
During the four months…when not kept in the prolonged stress standing position [with his hands shackled to the ceiling], his ankle shackles were allegedly kept attached by a one meter long chain to a pin fixed in the corner of the room where he was held.

…on several occasions the diaper was not replaced so he had to urinate and defecate on himself while shackled in the prolonged stress standing position. Indeed, in addition to Mr. Bin Attash, three other detainees specified that they had to defecate and urinate on themselves and remain standing in their own bodily fluids.

“Beating by use of a collar”, that “was placed around their necks and used by their interrogators to slam them against the walls.”

Mr. Abu Zubaydah commented that when the collar was first used on him in his third place of detention, he was slammed directly against a hard concrete wall. He was then placed in a tall box for several hours

Beating and kicking, including slapping, punching, kicking to the body and face…

Prolonged nudity…periods ranging from several weeks to several months…

Sleep deprivation…through use of forced stress positions, hosed down with cold water…

Threats of ill-treatment to … his family…

Deprivation…of solid food from 3 days to 1 month…

In each case, the person to be suffocated was strapped to a tilting bed and a cloth was placed over the face…Water was then poured continuously onto the cloth, saturating it and blocking off any air so that the person could not breathe. This form of suffocation induced a feeling of panic and the acute impression that the person was about to die. In at least one case, this was accompanied by incontinence of urine.

In all three cases this caused considerable pain, particularly for Mr. Abu Zubaydah who had undergone surgery just three months earlier…Zubaydah reports: “…the pressure of the straps on my wounds caused severed pain. I vomited…I struggled without success to breathe. I thought I was going to die. I lost control of my urine. Since then I still lose control of my urine under stress.”

…during the two weeks he was shackled in the prolonged stress standing position with his hands chained above his head, his artificial leg was sometimes removed by the interrogators to increase the stress and fatigue of the position.

…alleged that…he was threatened with sodomy, and with the arrest and rape of his family.

Conclusions:
…they were subjected to systematic physical and/or psychological ill-treatment. This regime was clearly designed to undermine human dignity and to create a sense of futility by inducing, in many cases, severe physical and mental pain and suffering…
—————————————-

By: Mickey G

Mickey G — Mon, 04 May 2009 20:50:57 +0000

Ozzie, no the one that holds water is the attempted attack on LAX. Lots of documentation available you just need the clearance to read it.

Regarding your torture and radicalize them we are repeating history. They want to kill us just as they have for centuries. Take a break from listening to yourself talk and read some history!

Then we have these sophmoric worries that frat type hazing constitutes torture. I can’t speak for other vets that read this blog but can speak for myself and I went through it in our survival/capture training and it is not a big deal. On the other hand the other guys do, in fact torture the old fashioned way…broken bones, decapitation, and other even worse so why are we walking around mouthing platitudes about treat them like we want to be treated.

By: Ozzie_M

Ozzie_M — Mon, 04 May 2009 20:08:27 +0000

Well now, that is the issue we are debating, isn’t it?

Well, that’s the issue *I’ve* been debating, Mountain Man. I’m not sure what you guys are debating, or even WHO you’re debating.

Evidently *you* are debating whether we are an ‘evil nation’, and how ‘Bush/Cheney is Satan’, and ‘we are the cause of the world’s problems’. Good luck with that. Hope you find somebody who believes that stuff and you can have a rousing to-do with them. I don’t, and never have.

Would it kill some of you guys to debate the actual people who are here, rather than these bizarre straw-man caricatures you keep dreaming up?

Who is hurt when we torture? Again, I refer you back to the numerous times I have expressed my opinion on that (and it’s not just my opinion). For one, Americans are hurt when we unnecessarily contribute to the further radicalization of our enemies. For another, top military brass testified to Congress that when we torture, we increase the likelihood that our boys will get the same or worse treatment. I could go on, but I’m just repeating myself at this point.

By: Mountain Man

Mountain Man — Mon, 04 May 2009 19:47:51 +0000

“We tortured those people.” Well now, that is the issue we are debating, isn’t it? It isn’t a legal issue until it can be shown that the law has been broken. And whether or not they were tortured remains to be seen, our assertion to the contrary.

I know how hopeful you are to prove what an evil nation we are, and how Bush/Cheney is Satan incarnate. Yes, yes, we are the cause of the world’s problems, and I know what you leftists think about the nobility of America.

The Geneva Convention doesn’t apply, since the terrorists weren’t dressed in uniform or fighting under the flag of a nation. Islamofascists have hated us for centuries, and if we do everything they want, they will still hate us. The opinion of the world community is irrelevant, they want us to become socialists like them.

So who exactly is being hurt, except for a bunch of terrorist b*st*rds who hide behind women and children and kill people solely because they are infidels?

By: Ozzie_M

Ozzie_M — Mon, 04 May 2009 19:27:16 +0000

Yes, I know that you would like to turn this into an issue of ‘feelings’ and ‘morality’, and so on, because then it’s all very subjective.

Well, no dice. I’m talking about the LAW, and that’s what I’ve been talking about all along.

Torture is illegal, and our treatment of the detainees was torture. It is also against the Geneva Convention, and the UNCAT agreement we signed.

Beyond the law, I’m talking about the adverse practical consequences of becoming a torturing nation. I’ve enumerated them elsewhere, many times.

I have moral judgments that no doubt show through. So do you. But I’ve not based my arguments on my personal moral judgments, I’ve based them on the definition of torture, the laws concerning torture, and the adverse practical consequences of torture.

Torture is illegal. We tortured those people. (Sorry if that is too nuanced for you).