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	<title>Comments on: The Hopelessness of Debate, Part III</title>
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	<link>http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2009/09/21/the-hopelessness-of-debate-part-iii/</link>
	<description>Conservative and Libertarian Intellectual Philosophy and Politics</description>
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		<title>By: Ivan Ivanovich</title>
		<link>http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2009/09/21/the-hopelessness-of-debate-part-iii/comment-page-1/#comment-79793</link>
		<dc:creator>Ivan Ivanovich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Sep 2009 15:32:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.intellectualconservative.com/?p=6810#comment-79793</guid>
		<description>Ah yes, Dr. Joseph Goebbels, Head of the German Ministry of Popular Enlightenment.  Today he would be called a Czar.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ah yes, Dr. Joseph Goebbels, Head of the German Ministry of Popular Enlightenment.  Today he would be called a Czar.</p>
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		<title>By: From Inwood</title>
		<link>http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2009/09/21/the-hopelessness-of-debate-part-iii/comment-page-1/#comment-79792</link>
		<dc:creator>From Inwood</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Sep 2009 14:59:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.intellectualconservative.com/?p=6810#comment-79792</guid>
		<description>P

Excellent article again.

Bob &amp; Ivan: Good comments.

I would note that we lawyers have an expression:

When one is wrong on the facts, argue the law; 

When one is wrong on the law, argue the facts;

When one is wrong on the facts &amp; the law, pound the table.

My favorite annoying jerk in an argument is the one who pounds the table figuratively by asking seriously, a la Rush Limbaugh’s parody, &quot;but what about the childun?&quot; 

Or &quot;What about the tired, the poor, the huddled masses yearning to breathe free?&quot;

This type of argumentum ad misericordiam can be very effective at bar-B-Qs &amp; cocktail parties where listeners do not want to be thought compassion-impaired. 

And then there’s argumentum ad pomum ad arantiam (apples to oranges). The Dems count the total, repeat total, number of rotating czars in eight Bush years vs. the 30 czar positions already created in eight months by Obama.  And some Bush “czars” were approved by the Senate &amp; all were vetted by the hostile MSM which went out of its way to show that one of them had put Mary Jane’s pigtail in the inkwell in the 4th Grade. Does anyone think that Bush would’ve been able to put in any extremist nuts like Van Jones?  But say don&#039;t let me get in the way of a good Glenn Beck search &amp; destroy mission. People like him are the real problem now preventing Healthcare &amp; Middle Eastern harmony.

And, P, Point of Order:

When you say that illegals are expressly excluded, though the exclusion is, of course, unenforceable, I must say about even that exclusion: up to a point, Lord Copper. Except for unenforceable vouchers in Section 246, HR 3200 bill does not exclude illegals from any part of national health care, including the taxpayer-funded health insurance plan. This is explained clearly in many places, most succinctly, I think in Ann Coulter column of 9/16: 

http://www.anncoulter.com/

Finally, robotic talkingheads &amp; sanctimonious pests at cocktail parties/Bar-B-Qs were fond of repeating the mantra “47 million uninsured”. Based on an unofficial survey they have now adopted the new party line “30 million uninsured”. Jonathan Swift said it well. You cannot reason someone out of a position he has not been reasoned into.
I see two choices about these folks’ 47/30 position: 1) it’s due to lack of education or awareness beyond the MSM, or (2) it’s intellectually dishonest; usually I feel it’s number two. 

Ivan: 

Your Fourth Way is Dr Goebbels’s Way. Keep repeating the Big Lie &amp; it will become accepted. Dem talkingheads on FOX always seem to begin their point about healthcare as follows “We need Healthcare (or insurance) reform now with 30 million uninsured Americans….”. At this point neither  the Republican opponent nor the FOX moderator bothers to correct ‘em.

Actually, I&#039;m surprised that Obama didn&#039;t say &quot;57 million of the people in the 57 states are uninsured&quot;. ☺</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>P</p>
<p>Excellent article again.</p>
<p>Bob &amp; Ivan: Good comments.</p>
<p>I would note that we lawyers have an expression:</p>
<p>When one is wrong on the facts, argue the law; </p>
<p>When one is wrong on the law, argue the facts;</p>
<p>When one is wrong on the facts &amp; the law, pound the table.</p>
<p>My favorite annoying jerk in an argument is the one who pounds the table figuratively by asking seriously, a la Rush Limbaugh’s parody, &#8220;but what about the childun?&#8221; </p>
<p>Or &#8220;What about the tired, the poor, the huddled masses yearning to breathe free?&#8221;</p>
<p>This type of argumentum ad misericordiam can be very effective at bar-B-Qs &amp; cocktail parties where listeners do not want to be thought compassion-impaired. </p>
<p>And then there’s argumentum ad pomum ad arantiam (apples to oranges). The Dems count the total, repeat total, number of rotating czars in eight Bush years vs. the 30 czar positions already created in eight months by Obama.  And some Bush “czars” were approved by the Senate &amp; all were vetted by the hostile MSM which went out of its way to show that one of them had put Mary Jane’s pigtail in the inkwell in the 4th Grade. Does anyone think that Bush would’ve been able to put in any extremist nuts like Van Jones?  But say don&#8217;t let me get in the way of a good Glenn Beck search &amp; destroy mission. People like him are the real problem now preventing Healthcare &amp; Middle Eastern harmony.</p>
<p>And, P, Point of Order:</p>
<p>When you say that illegals are expressly excluded, though the exclusion is, of course, unenforceable, I must say about even that exclusion: up to a point, Lord Copper. Except for unenforceable vouchers in Section 246, HR 3200 bill does not exclude illegals from any part of national health care, including the taxpayer-funded health insurance plan. This is explained clearly in many places, most succinctly, I think in Ann Coulter column of 9/16: </p>
<p><a href="http://www.anncoulter.com/" rel="nofollow">http://www.anncoulter.com/</a></p>
<p>Finally, robotic talkingheads &amp; sanctimonious pests at cocktail parties/Bar-B-Qs were fond of repeating the mantra “47 million uninsured”. Based on an unofficial survey they have now adopted the new party line “30 million uninsured”. Jonathan Swift said it well. You cannot reason someone out of a position he has not been reasoned into.<br />
I see two choices about these folks’ 47/30 position: 1) it’s due to lack of education or awareness beyond the MSM, or (2) it’s intellectually dishonest; usually I feel it’s number two. </p>
<p>Ivan: </p>
<p>Your Fourth Way is Dr Goebbels’s Way. Keep repeating the Big Lie &amp; it will become accepted. Dem talkingheads on FOX always seem to begin their point about healthcare as follows “We need Healthcare (or insurance) reform now with 30 million uninsured Americans….”. At this point neither  the Republican opponent nor the FOX moderator bothers to correct ‘em.</p>
<p>Actually, I&#8217;m surprised that Obama didn&#8217;t say &#8220;57 million of the people in the 57 states are uninsured&#8221;. ☺</p>
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		<title>By: Ivan Ivanovich</title>
		<link>http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2009/09/21/the-hopelessness-of-debate-part-iii/comment-page-1/#comment-79777</link>
		<dc:creator>Ivan Ivanovich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Sep 2009 12:33:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.intellectualconservative.com/?p=6810#comment-79777</guid>
		<description>Very interesting. In reading about the Third Way, I was reminded that as children we argued that way. It took education and training to show us the proper way of debate. But you negelect the Forth Way. That is the one used when you know the truth, you know the rules, but you deliberatly stand up behind a teleprompter and tell untruths and break the rules because you think the people will not be able to tell that you are lying. This method, when detected, makes people mad! But then, maybe that&#039;s the goal?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very interesting. In reading about the Third Way, I was reminded that as children we argued that way. It took education and training to show us the proper way of debate. But you negelect the Forth Way. That is the one used when you know the truth, you know the rules, but you deliberatly stand up behind a teleprompter and tell untruths and break the rules because you think the people will not be able to tell that you are lying. This method, when detected, makes people mad! But then, maybe that&#8217;s the goal?</p>
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		<title>By: Bob Stapler</title>
		<link>http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2009/09/21/the-hopelessness-of-debate-part-iii/comment-page-1/#comment-79774</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob Stapler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Sep 2009 01:26:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.intellectualconservative.com/?p=6810#comment-79774</guid>
		<description>This just goes to show what happens when you open Pandora&#039;s seven-sided box.  &#039;Czar&#039;s&#039; were extra-Constitutional to begin with.  For once, I have to agree with something posted at Huffington’s; that is, the whole ‘czar’ craze has been ‘un-American’ and smacks of autocracy (see http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kathleen-reardon/what-is-this-czar-busines_b_149915.html ).  

Counter-pundits are wrong that Reagan gave us our first putative ‘czar’, though his does mark the beginning of a period of regular czar designations.  That, dubious distinction goes to FDR who had 12 so dubbed, each of whom wielded real power; including the power to set prices, ration resources, and distribute monies to favored groups.  Nor was it Reagan who created the position of drug czar (Senate did) over his objection.  Even so, it set a precedent that the President could delegate some of his executive role to others at very high levels.  Bush I increased the number of such advisors designated ‘czar’, as did Clinton.   Clinton, however, expanded the role to include advising others beside the president, starting with Hillary.  Late in his administration, Clinton also began the practice of giving non-Congress authorized czars real power (semi-permanence, order activities, oversight, spending authority, &amp;c).  That also set a precedent.  Bush II did not expand the role further, but didn’t exactly roll it back to the Reagan model either.  He also greatly increased the number of such jobs.  Obama is unique for creating these czars at the very outset of his administration as if they were positions in need of filling, rather than the ‘get-in, get-out, get-the-job-done’ tasks previous Whitehouse occupants made of them.  Obama defenders carp Bush II had more (32 v 31), but keep in mind that was 32 czar positions over 8 years versus Obama’s 31 in just his first seven months.   Most of Bush’s added czars served a few months to years with the positions retired at the end of each assignment.  Creating these jobs at the start suggests little intention they will go away while Democrats rule.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._executive_branch_czars</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This just goes to show what happens when you open Pandora&#8217;s seven-sided box.  &#8216;Czar&#8217;s&#8217; were extra-Constitutional to begin with.  For once, I have to agree with something posted at Huffington’s; that is, the whole ‘czar’ craze has been ‘un-American’ and smacks of autocracy (see <a href="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kathleen-reardon/what-is-this-czar-busines_b_149915.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kathleen-reardon/what-is-this-czar-busines_b_149915.html</a> ).  </p>
<p>Counter-pundits are wrong that Reagan gave us our first putative ‘czar’, though his does mark the beginning of a period of regular czar designations.  That, dubious distinction goes to FDR who had 12 so dubbed, each of whom wielded real power; including the power to set prices, ration resources, and distribute monies to favored groups.  Nor was it Reagan who created the position of drug czar (Senate did) over his objection.  Even so, it set a precedent that the President could delegate some of his executive role to others at very high levels.  Bush I increased the number of such advisors designated ‘czar’, as did Clinton.   Clinton, however, expanded the role to include advising others beside the president, starting with Hillary.  Late in his administration, Clinton also began the practice of giving non-Congress authorized czars real power (semi-permanence, order activities, oversight, spending authority, &amp;c).  That also set a precedent.  Bush II did not expand the role further, but didn’t exactly roll it back to the Reagan model either.  He also greatly increased the number of such jobs.  Obama is unique for creating these czars at the very outset of his administration as if they were positions in need of filling, rather than the ‘get-in, get-out, get-the-job-done’ tasks previous Whitehouse occupants made of them.  Obama defenders carp Bush II had more (32 v 31), but keep in mind that was 32 czar positions over 8 years versus Obama’s 31 in just his first seven months.   Most of Bush’s added czars served a few months to years with the positions retired at the end of each assignment.  Creating these jobs at the start suggests little intention they will go away while Democrats rule.</p>
<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._executive_branch_czars" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._executive_branch_czars</a></p>
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