The Fair Tax will collect the same amount of revenue as the income tax, but it will spread the burden more equitably and transparently.
Both my Father and older brother were Certified Public Accountants. Around the dinner table, the Internal Revenue Service was spoken of as the adversary. "Tax time" which used to mean a March 15 deadline was preceded by a period of long working hours. Over the years the tax laws became so arcane and dense they defy comprehension.
The income tax is probably the worst thing that ever happened to the United States in the last century because it was always punitive and regressive. It punishes saving. It deters economic growth through investment. It takes the wage earner's money before he or she receives their paycheck.
There is nothing so powerful as an idea whose time has come and you can read all about it in Ken Hoagland's The Fair Tax Solution: Financial Justice for All Americans ($19.95, Sentinel, Penguin Group USA). With notes and index, this book is a mere 151 pages and is small enough to fit into anyone's pocket or purse. You will learn more about taxation in America from this little book than from several volumes of tax code.
Let me put the Fair Tax is perspective. In early March, The Washington Post reported that, "President Obama's proposed budget would add more than $9.7 trillion to the national debt over the next decade, congressional budget analysts said Friday." As most people know by now, you can never trust any estimate of costs that the government puts forth unless you multiply it by a factor of two or three.
The U.S. is facing a financial Armageddon.
The projected deficit of $1.5 trillion "would force the Treasury to continue borrowing at prodigious rates, sending the national debt soaring to 90 percent of the economy by 2020." Someone wants America to collapse and someone is doing everything in his power to ensure that happens.
Real limits on how much the government can borrow must be imposed. Limits on how much it can spend are needed. The claim that taxes only "soak the rich" is false because income tax laws are now destroying the middle class while most of the officially "poor" pay no taxes at all.
Hoagland is the Communications Director of Americans for Fair Taxation, the sponsoring organization for Fair Tax legislation. What he does not know about taxation is not worth knowing and what he does know he imparts with breathtaking simplicity and directness.
"Today we tax the very thing our economy needs to grow — income and that which produces income. We take money from savings, from returns on investment, and from what we are paid for our labor."
The Fair Tax, which would replace only federal taxation, is based on what we individually consume. It is paid at the point of sale and it does not take earnings from one's paycheck, nor punish you for having a savings account or for capital gains as the result of investing wisely. A Fair Tax says your money is your money.
The current tax system actually punishes corporations for being headquartered here. The U.S. levies the second highest (after Japan) corporate tax in the world. The result makes doing business in American far less competitive than in other nations. It forces corporations to collectively spend billions on compliance.
"According to the Tax Foundation, small businesses spend an astounding $724 in compliance costs for every $100 they pay in income tax." Most people have to hire people to prepare their tax returns for them because of their complexity.
Enacted in 1912, over "almost one hundred years of congressional amendments, court decisions, and taxpayer/IRS disputes (the tax code) has swelled to more than 2.1 million words" and in fiscal year 2006 it was 16,845 pages.
When an earlier version of the income tax was proposed, it was repealed in 1872 and a later 1894 version was rejected by the Supreme Court as unconstitutional in 1895 because the income tax violated the Constitution's prohibition against direct taxation (article 1, section 9). It took a Constitutional amendment, the sixteenth, ratified February 12, 1913, to permit it.
After that, Congress had an enormous source of revenue with which to swell the federal government.
"The cost of compliance, the hours and money spent on preparing tax forms, totaled close to $300 billion in 2008," writes Hoagland. "That's twice as much as the total of all the taxpayer stimulus checks mailed out in 2008."
The result of the income tax has been "destructive, as politicians from both parties have taken us down a path of unsustainable spending."
Despite what you will be told, the Fair Tax will collect the same amount of revenue as the income tax, but it will spread the burden more equitably and transparently.
It would literally eliminate any need for the Internal Revenue Service because it is a tax of 23% on what consumers spend "instead of an average of 30% of all the money they earn."
No more gigantic, impenetrable tax code.
No more prying into the private transactions and earnings of citizens.
No more deductions for withholding and payroll taxes from your paycheck before you are paid.
No more punishment for saving or investing.
No more incentives for corporations to artificially keep salaries low or to move out of the nation to avoid harsh taxation.
Your earnings are your earnings. They do not belong to the federal or state government. With a Fair Tax, the more you earn, the more you keep, depending on how much you decide to spend.
That's why it is called a Fair Tax and that is why the time has come to enact it.
Won't happen Alan!
The Fair Tax is, arguably, the best proposal to come forward since times before the income tax was allowed (16th amendment should go down in infamy). So why do I think it is dead on arrival?
1. Politicians lose the ability to hide taxes from the public by increasing business taxes then crying out in indignation when the evil businesses raise prices.
2. Citizens will be able to see how much they are taxed, politicians hate that idea.
3. Because taxes are visible and everyone pays them (above the poverty level since the fair tax rebates taxes up to that level)increases also are very visible. Hmmm politicians would no longer be able to find their troughs to feed the hogs.
4. Special interest groups would no longer need to buy politicians because the politicians would no longer be able to craft custom tax exemptions.
5. The US citizenry has an economic IQ of about 4 on a 100 scale. They believe that business pay taxes (only businesses losing money can pay taxes all others are tax collectors hiding the taxes in their sales prices). They also believe that individual tax exemptions are good things instead of full employment for tax preparers.
6. Even illegal aliens would have to pay the tax and the majority of politicians do not want them to pay taxes because it would make them want higher wages. Of course the politicians don't care about citizens out of work.
It is a shame to see a really good plan go down in flames but picture Queen Nancy and her consort Prince Harry introducing the fair tax to their respective realms. Don't hold your breath.
I agree with your assessment regarding income tax vs. fair tax. However, there are a few things to note:
1) The 16th amendment would not only need to be repealed, a new amendment would need to be formulated that forbids an income tax.
2) The fact that the fair tax will raise the same amount of revenue is not an advantage. The government receives too much money now. We need to cut back on the amount of money the government gets.
3) By focusing on the revenue side, the real nature of the problem is missed. Certainly we do need to fix the tax system, but ultimately it is a spending problem, not a revenue problem. Government has accrued too much power, and money is power.
MM, the good thing about the fair tax is that the draft legislation also notes that it becomes effective upon repeal of the 16th amendment. The fair tax does have some controls on growth by simply making the full tax burden visible, but then again remember the economic IQ of the US citizenry!
Mickey G:
Could you elaborate on how the rebate works? Thx.
MM, the prerebate (I misspoke calling it a rebate) creates a smaller bureauracy to replace the IRS by mailing a monthly payment (eft or check)to each citizen household to cover the estimated Fair Tax paid on items expected to be bought up to the poverty level for that household. Welfare? Yes, however it takes away the argument that the poorest pay an unfair amount of the tax burden. It also does not prebate to those that should not be here under immigration laws…this part is a really good thing. Finally the interlopers begin to pay a share of the cost of having them in the country.
In any event here is the effect of the prebate from the fair tax site:
For example, under the FairTax a family of four with a husband and wife, spending at or below the poverty level ($27,380) would have a zero or negative effective tax rate because of the rebate. This same family with expenditures of $54,760, an amount twice the poverty level, pays an average sales tax rate of only 13 percent on goods and services (equivalent to 11½ percent under the current income and payroll tax systems). If they spent $109,520, four times the poverty rate, they would have an average sales tax rate of 20.9 percent (equivalent to 17.3 percent under the current system). The most recent estimate for average income for farm-operator households in 2006 is $75,848.3 If this average farm-operator household were to spend 90 percent of the money and save 10 percent, they would pay $9,629 in federal sales taxes (12.7 percent of income). Compare this to the current system where this household has to pay a self-employment tax for Social Security and Medicare of 15.3 percent in addition to income taxes, regardless of how much money they save. The total tax liability for an average farming and ranching family under current law exceeds the maximum tax rate imposed under the FairTax.
Here is a prebate example in table form from the fair tax site:
One adult household Two adult household
Family Annual Annual Monthly Family Annual Annual Monthly
Size Consumption Prebate Prebate Size Consumption Prebate Prebate
Allowance 1 Allowance 1
1 person $10,210 $2,348 $196 N/A N/A N/A N/A
and 1 child $13,690 $3,149 $262 couple $20,420 $4,697 $391
and 2 children $17,170 $3,949 $329 and 1 child $23,900 $5,497 $458
and 3 children $20,650 $4,750 $396 and 2 children $27,380 $6,297 $525
and 4 children $24,130 $5,550 $462 and 3 children $30,860 $7,098 $591
and 5 children $27,610 $6,350 $529 and 4 children $34,340 $7,898 $658
and 6 children $31,090 $7,151 $596 and 5 children $37,820 $8,699 $725
and 7 children $34,570 $7,951 $663 and 6 children $41,300 $9,499 $792
Unfortunately my formatting looked good until it hit the site…oh well here is the link to the affect of the fair tax:
http://www.fairtax.org/site/DocServer/A_Distributional_Analysis_of_Adopting_the_FairTax.pdf?docID=781
Don't like the rebate/prebate. Everyone ought to pay for government, even if just a little.
I agree with MM. No matter what tax system we live under; the real nut to crack is the spending problem. This year is the first year that Social Security will have to get some amount of payback on all those Treasury IOU's. THen there will follow another year or so of surplus before falling behind for good.
I understand politicians are talking behind the scenes about a VAT to be added to the income tax just like the social democracies in the EU. That extra money won't help either. It doesn't take long for your creditors to slap your household back to reality if you try to spend more than you take in. China and Japan aren't going to cut Obama off nearly soon enough.
Until we fix Washington's propensity for spending beyond our means it won't matter how much we fiddle with the tax system.
Mickey G:
We had a discussion of this back in 2008. In order to exempt the poor from tax under the FairTax plan, the government would issue in advance a rebate (or “prebate”) the tax on purchases of basic necessities.
As has been said many times, the devil is in the details. I would be willing to bet my first year’s prebate that the amounts of the prebates alone are enough to live on in Mexico, so all that Mexicans living in the US need do is have their prebate checks go directly to a bank and then move back to Mexico. As word spread that Gringos are shoveling money into the streets in the US, there would be an immediate rush of both legals and illegals across the border into the US to get signed up, since the courts have consistently held that the government cannot withhold benefits from non-citizens, even illegals. Once signed up, they too would probably opt to return to their country of origin. This would not be limited to Mexicans. Other foreigners would also be attracted [think terrorists]. What’s to stop even a casual tourist from signing up? [I will concede, however, that it will help solve the illegal immigrant problem in the long run.]
Where in the proposal is this potential problem addressed?
I agree with the fundamental idea of the fair tax. But I fear that in the unlikely event of it's adoption, the government would have a thriving black market to deal with.
MM:
Amen! Several things might happen if everyone were required to pay: 1) people might learn that it takes money to run a government; 2) individuals who never paid before just might also learn that they too can give of themselves.
John A,
There's already a thriving black market in this country. I can get almost anything done; from setting a barn, to stretching fence, even the sale of livestock can be done underground in this country. The incentive to beat the taxman is high these days; especially with the people that 'double dip' by working for cash under-the-table while drawing their 'extended' unemployment benefits.
MM,
It's probably a 'good' thing the government has this payroll withholding scheme down so well. How long ago do you thing the revolution would have happened if there had never been withholding and each of the working people in the country actually had to cut a check to Uncle Sugar on the 15th of April?
Indeed, taxpayers are isolated from the true cost of government. Any change in the system must make individuals directly responsible for their tax burden. And no one should be exempt from carrying a part of it.
The standard refrain I hear when someone objects to the tax system is something like, "Are you going to stop driving on government roads or using the post office?" In other words, somehow it is hypocrisy when those who benefit from government-paid services complain about government excesses.
I guess there are only two choices: government or anarchy. Apparently there is no in-between.
The Fair Tax Act by Rep John Linder and co-signed by about 100 members of congress is the answer to tax collections and economic growth for our country. It would be the biggest shift of power in our country's history. This shift would be from congress to the people. Please allow me to give a few bullet point:
1) Eliminate all personal, payroll, and corporate taxes.
2) Replace the taxes with an INCLUSIVE 23% retail sales tax. This tax is NOT, and I repeat NOT, a 23% tax added to the retail cost. The people who oppose this tax will not quote it as an inclusive tax because they want to maintain the power of congress and big government. This allows for tax receipts to be revenue neutral. This is better way to collect taxes. When you buy goods or services you pay a tax. Even drug dealers and foreign visitors would pay for our government's budget.
3) A refund based on the poverty level would be given back to assure that basic necessities of life are not taxed. For example, a family of four would receive a check for $525 each month to offset any taxes they paid during the month at retail level.
4) A person who is working would bring home his paycheck in its entirety except for state and local taxes. A much larger paycheck to do with as he or she pleases. When he or she spends money it is then collected at the retail level for the cost of operating our government.
5) With no corporate taxes we would become the tax haven for the world. 400 of the largest corporations of the world were asked what effect the Fair Tax would have on their futures decisions for expansion. 240 said they would build their next plant here and the remaining 160 said they would move their entire corporate structure here. Now that's growth you can believe in. Unemployment would drop overnight. Why do we not do this now? It's all about retaining power for the elected elite.
6) We spend $400 billion+ on preparing our taxes. With the Fair Tax Act this would be eliminated as there are no taxes. We have over 70,000 pages of tax code to interpret. It is impossible to apply it equally to all citizens. This $400 billion would be better used recirculating in our economy than for government compliance which.
I would encourage you to buy the book, The Fair Tax Act by John Linder and read it.
hvance:
I dislike the current system as much as the next guy, but the FairTax has problems its advocates are not addressing.
Yes. Even people already on Social Security who have savings that were already taxed under the current system would have to pay the 23% when they withdrew savings to buy something. In other words, they pay a double tax. How does the FairTax prevent this?
Please address the problem in my previous post above.
Sedonaman, Don't forget that today when they are buying something at the retail level they are paying imbedded corporate taxes of on average 22%. The person who has saved would not be "punished" as you imply since retail prices would be overall the same once the retail tax is included in the price at the retail level. Therefore the purchasing power of your dollar would be the same. If this were all there was to it it would be great but there's more. This person who is withdrawing savings would get a pre-bate check every month for what he/she spends up to the poverty level. They also save money, time, & aggravation of filing their income tax forms each year. April 15th is just another day. This system of collecting taxes is revenue neutral for the government. It is neither an increase nor a decrease in taxes. What it does do is show how much you are spending on taxes, a very transparent way of exposing the run-a-way spending of congress. The Fair Tax also eliminates the need for many lobbyists who are in D.C. to garner favor with congress for one advantage after another for their company over another. This would be the biggest shift of power in our country's history, from congress to the people. I really encourage you to go to the library and check out the book, The Fair Tax Act by John Linder & Neal Boortz. I think you would be really surprised at how powerful this could be for our economy.
Let's take a focused look at things as they stand. The current tax system is a full employment program for all in the accounting profession as will as fringe units like tax preparers. Couple this with a massive bureauracy in the IRS and rather draconian collection practices and we lead ourselves toward a perfect set up for a tax revolution. Check and see how many pages are in the tax code and note that we are complaining about a measly 2,000 in the new health debacle.
We currently have the federal income tax paid by around 50% of workers with the other 50% getting a free ride in the name of "compassion for the poor poor".
The fair tax is structured to have everyone pay and know by paying what it costs to run our government. Because payment is made at the retail level we can withhold our payments by foregoing purchases. We also have the option of electing those that will reduce the tax burden by killing off programs giving cash and services to those not required to work for them (I will concede that those under 16 and those truly not able to work should not be required to work for their benefits but everyone else should).
The prebate troubles me only because it is giving something for nothing but it still beats the current system hands down.
Fair Tax a good idea…yes, I think so. Will it ever be enacted? NOPE.
Mickey G, Who would have ever thought that we would make it illegal to sell beer? When the tax paying public gets fed up enough there will be a tax revolution. I totally agree with you on able bodied people having to work. They have to have a job opportunity. With the Fair Tax there will be a job glut. With no corporate taxes our export business would explode. This is why 240 of the 400 largest corporations would build their next plant here and the remaining 160 would move their corporate headquarters here. Our current manufacturing base would be enhanced. To add another note there are $14+ trillion overseas not here because of taxes. If half of that came home can you say "that's change that we can believe in and want"? Think of all of the people working to manufacture those goods and taking home a full paycheck. They will spend it and government revenues will go through the roof. It will then be up to us to curtail government spending, a much better situation than we now have.
Yes we can pass this bill. It needs an elevator speech since Joe 6-Pack has a short attention span. 1) You get to keep your whole paycheck, 2) You get a check every month from the government, 3) Jobs, Jobs, Jobs. This reaches Joe in the pocketbook which is where he and everyone else makes their decisions.
hvance:
Then, if I understand you correctly and to take an example to illustrate, a person on Social Security who takes $20,000 in savings and buys a car under today’s system pays $20,000, but under FairTax, he would pay not $24,600 [$20,000 plus 23%], but only $16,260 plus 23% = $20,000, because the dealer’s corporate tax will have been reduced by 23%. Correct?
I understand all of this, but what about aliens getting on the prebate rolls and moving back to Mexico? Can you please address that problem?
We will never get a "Fair" (consumption) tax.
There is one major obstacle to such a system; politicians.
Politicians buy votes in two ways;
Promising further entitlements to the lazy and indigent, and promising tax policy that will either give advantage to one group or disadvantage to a competing group.
Politicians will not allow anyone to remove half of the methods through which they raise campaign cash and solidify their jobs. They may be a bunch of self serving rascals, but they're not a stupid bunch of self serving rascals.
The Fair Tax doesn’t stand a snowball's chance in hell of ever coming out of committee, let alone getting a floor vote. It's exactly like HR 450 the Enumerated Powers Act; lots of co-sponsors but no traction.
Sedonaman, On your car example that is correct. The retail price would be roughly the same across the board. The opponents always try to mislead the public by adding 23% to the current retail price. This is what Joe 6-Pack hears and doesn't like that. Once this movement reaches the tipping point then it will be easy to sell to the public. The reason it is done this way is to be consistent with the way taxes are calculated. If you make $100 and are in a 31% bracket you pay $31. With the Fair Tax you pay $23. Don't forget that you now do not pay FICA which amounts to 15% plus whatever tax bracket you are in. Even the folks who pay no federal taxes pay FICA, which is a huge savings to them.
As for the aliens they would have to get a social security card in order to get the prebate and as I understand it, you can't get a card unless you are a citizen. What this results in is they pay taxes via the retail route where today they take their income under the table and pay no taxes. So would drug dealers, hookers, etc. pay into the system. The underground economy would be taxed. Will there be cheats? Sure, but there are cheats today with our system. No business with an ounce of sense would try to avoid this method of collecting taxes.
Bill Wavering, I agree. Politicians will do what is in their interest, not the country's. That being said it is an uphill battle. There will be a tipping point and we are getting closer thanks to the flagrant way congress is abusing the dollar and our economy. Have you noticed the impact a bunch of ordinary citizens called The Tea Party has made. What we as Fair Tax supporters need to do is continue to push the agenda. We can work through various groups, the Tea Party being one of them. We have to get in the face of politicians and demand that they will sign a pledge that they will vote for the Fair Tax. If they won't, we will vote in someone who will vote for it. Did you notice last summer 1.6 million people in D.C. protesting the health care bill? It was the largest group ever in D.C. The million man march only had 250,000 at best show up. When the pain gets bad enough there will be people looking for an answer. The Fair Tax is the answer because it takes power away from Washington and puts it back to the people. This is a strong sentiment prevalent today. Be encouraged. Be positive. I hope you can be counted on to support this with word and involvement. One rain drop over time erodes a mountain.
hvance,
I well understand the impact the T.E.A.Party has made. Despite all the recorded evidence against health care along with poll numbers from reputable polling organizations; the progressives are going to pass this health care bill by hook or by crook; actually by hook and by crook.
Our Garland County T.E.A. party morphed into a PAC named the C4AA (Citizen's for the American Agenda) and have endorsed 15 C4AA candidates in this year's county elections. Our fear is that there may not be much country to recover once the progressives get through with the Obama agenda before the 2010 elections.
Once they've succeeded in getting most Congressional democrats to commit political suicide for health care; then the big press will be on to finish the agenda before November.
It will be Majority Leader Harry Reid's job to use reconciliation to pass the cap & trade bill languishing in the Senate. Once that is done; the White House will convince the democratic majorities in both houses that the only way to save both majorities in 2010 is to create as many newly minted democratic voters as quickly as possible. They'll use all the tactics unearthed during the health care debate to shove 'undocumented worker' amnesty through both houses before September. How much affect do you think 13 million new Hispanic voters will have on these elections?
hvance:
From the Social Security website:
In general, only noncitizens who have permission to work from the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) can apply for a Social Security number. If you do not have permission to work but need a Social Security number for other purposes, see “Work eligibility” for further information.
To apply for a Social Security number:
* Complete an Application For A Social Security Card (Form SS-5); and
* Show us documents proving:
o Immigration status;
o Work eligibility;
o Age; and
o Identity.
* Take your completed application and original documents to your local Social Security office.
http://www.socialsecurity.gov/ss5doc/?ID=ori&Selfchild=self&Status=nat18&Submit=Submit
Bill, You indeed paint a dire picture. Should this happen and all 13 million Hispanic voters are eligible in September it could be bad for the Conservative movement now in place. I would like to think that a vast majority of independent voters and some more traditional democrats would vote for the "Traditional" ticket this fall. I think that the word traditional would be better received by the democrats than the word Republican. Sometimes it's all about words however stupid that may be. harry reid would have to use reconciliation to jam through the crap and trade and the undocumented worker agenda. Do I think he would? Yes. If they try to do this I am convinced that the uprising by the health care opponents would be but a flashlight as compared to the sun. If they were to pass it in spite of tremendous negative public opinion the fall election would be all about overturning the entire agenda of health care, crap & trade, and illegal aliens voting. I think it would be a tsunami. This would be the unraveling of the democrat party for a generation at the minimum.
sedonaman, thanks for the update on how to get a ss card if you are an alien. If they work and have a ss card then they would be eligible, but remember, these are legals, not illegals. Therein lies a big difference. When the Fair Tax Act passes, we will need many more workers than we have today and this will be a moot point. The main thing is for them to be legal. If they are not, no prebate. It's a big incentive to be legal which is what we want.
hvance:
I'm glad you mentioned incentives. What incentive is there to working when [rhetorical] you could move back to Mexico and live on the prebate?
hvance,
If both Houses of Congress and the President are willing to ram health care through despite overwhelming negative public opinion; why not cap & trade and amnesty as well?
In my opinion legislative fiat is a lot like murder. The first one is tough and scary, but as many a serial killer had noted to their biographers, each subsequent killing gets easier than the one before; and before long it's just another thing you've always done.
Once they've done this for health care; all the leadership has to say is; "in for a penny; in for a pound." Each legislative fiat will get easier and easier. The more redistributive programs they create, the more bureaucrats they'll need and the more room there will be for potentially defeated lawmakers in the administration. Of course the more meaning will be attached to the phrase "Re-elect me or those nasty republicans will take away your _________ (insert favorite social justice program here).
I grew up in Chicago during Mayor Daily Sr.'s time. You transplant that type of system to Washington and baby do you ever have trouble.
Sedonaman,
(I'm glad you mentioned incentives. What incentive is there to working when [rhetorical] you could move back to Mexico and live on the prebate?)
Damn good question. I would hope that you would have to be a U.S. citizen to receive a prebate abroad. I don't know the answer to that question.
Bill W.,
(I grew up in Chicago during Mayor Daily Sr.'s time. You transplant that type of system to Washington and baby do you ever have trouble.)
You are right. Once you kill, the second time is easier. To really take it to a lower level they could pass a law stipulating that mid term elections serve no purpose. That would give them plenty of time to really make a mess of things.
We have to concentrate on what we can do and not take our eye off of the ball. If they try to do some of the things that you suggest I really do think there would be anarchy in the streets. Hope that doesn't happen, don't think it will.
hvance,
All we really have to do to completely understand where we are in this is to look at the health care debate. This has been going on for over a year. The President has held events particularly focused on this issue over thirty times. Each time Rasmussen or ABC takes a poll the numbers of people that support this legislation dwindle.
I Massachusetts a senate candidate made beating health care his number one issue and won a seat that had been held for 50 years by a universal health care champion.
As more and more is revealed about how this sausage is being made, the more vocal the American Public becomes. First it was reconciliation, now it's 'deem and pass'. Even the democrats don't want to have to vote on this bill. All the indication you need to tell how heavy this lift has become is to realize that Barack Obama is going to grant an interview with Fox News this evening; a sign of the end times if there ever was one.
This is that 'first murder' I was referencing. If the House 'deems' this bill to have passed without an up or down vote, and the President signs it; what's to stop the Senate from saving their own skins and saying; "We no longer need reconciliation. We have the bill we always liked."
The House goes crazy over the betrayal. Obama tells Reid they have to close the democratic ranks. The senate must prove to the House they are willing to take risk also. The only way to demonstrate this is for the Senate to thumb its nose at the American People as bluntly as the House just did. Say hello to the Senate using reconciliation to pass cap & trade.
"Well, now that we're all in this together; there's no reason not to go for the Trifecta. Let's pass amnesty. Let's ram it through both houses quickly enough to allow all 13 million newly minted citizens the ability to register 60 days before the election so they can vote. How grateful do you think 13 million people who just got permission to ride the entitlement train will be? This could be our only hope of keeping our jobs people."
You can't see this coming? They get away with this the first time; and by November there won't be much left to save. They'll have rewritten the contract between government and the American people. Goodbye republic; hello social democracy. You do know what a democracy is? Mob rule. Democracy is three wolves and a single sheep voting on what's for dinner.
hvance:
Sedonaman,
I don't think there is an answer. How would you know where he's living? A person could live in Mexico [or some other country] while having his prebate check directly deposited in a US bank, and then write checks off the account or use a credit card with autopay.
Bill:
Didn't Pelosi et al just announce this yesterday?
Frankly my dear I don't give a damn about whether we can do a mental flight of fancy to come up with a prebate check in Mexico. I want a tax method that is simple, visible, and difficult to change. I also would really like to see the IRS gutted!
The best contender out there is the Fair Tax. Politicians hate it including lying about its content therefore it is good.
Mickey G:
I agree with you, but it will not be possible as long as the people are willing to hurt themselves in order to hurt "the rich" even less.
Bill W. & Sedonaman,
On the trifecta: As we have discussed, once you murder the second time around is easier. There is the possibility of crap and trade and the voting bill being done this year. If it does happen and we are allowed to vote in November, then I think that there will be hell to pay for the incumbents. Who knows?
As for Sedonaman's concern over sending money to Mexico because they had a ss #, it might be that since they were legal and had a card they could be scrutinized to see if they were working. Make it so the employer had to report any legal alien working in order for him to get the check. It might not be perfect but it beats what we have now by light years.
Here's a thought: Since the average taxpayer's main concern is to hurt "the rich", and the government needs money to operate, why not replace the collection of taxes with the government just printing the money it needs? Since the poor have little money and the rich have a lot, it will hurt the rich a lot more than the poor, and there would be no need to devote a lot of GDP to comply with a complex code.
The "Fair Tax" is just another name for a Value Added Tax, the statist European way to tax the serfs without them realizing it. How can "intellectuals" promote this? As the old Italian man from Blawnox, PA said, "A-more school, a-more dumb!"
anastunya,
Nothing like proving one’s own point within the same comment, huh? “How can "intellectuals" promote this? As the old Italian man from Blawnox, PA said, "A-more school, a-more dumb!"” What do you think; maybe before commenting you should actually read the book?
http://www.amazon.com/FairTax-Answering-Critics-Neal-Boortz/dp/0061540463
If the tax were to be enacted without any other constitutional adjustment you would be correct. However; the actual Fair Tax proposal calls for the overturning of the 16th Amendment, passing a subsequent amendment permanently banning an income tax, as well as the disbanding of the IRS prior to the enactment of the Fair Tax.
As you say a-more school, a-more dumb. Next time try a little research. If that’s just too much trouble, you could try reading the first two posts on this thread! One must reasonably wonder just how insightful a comment is if they cannot even be bothered to do that much prior to scrabbling across their keyboard.
Anastunya,
Your depth of knowledge of the Fair Tax does not merit an explanation to your comment. I would recommend you reading the book but that is apparently beyond you.